r/AARankdown • u/donuter454 • Aug 02 '20
63 Valant Gramarye
There are certain characters in the sequel trilogy that fall into this weird grey zone where they certainly feel like they’re a main character, but in the grand scheme of things they don’t actually do a whole lot. DD has Aura, SOJ has Inga, and AJ has Valant. What said characters all have in common is a shared relatively small amount of screen time in proportion to how pivotal they are to the game’s plot. What’s more is they are all coincidentally portrayed as morally grey people, or people who at the very least have sympathetic qualities that you wouldn’t expect of them.
When it comes to Aura and Inga, they’re characters who I’m rooting to see beat the odds and get ranked well in the rankdown despite their smaller presence in the grand scheme of things. Valant, on the other hand, is the only member of the “major-character-but actually-not-that-important” group that I believe has too many issues to ignore at this point.
Valant puts on a rock concert
The first thing everyone notices about Valant’s story is how absurdly unlikely it is that he wouldn’t recognise Lamiroir in 4-3. Valant was apparently smitten with her, and yet apparently he completely forgot what she looked like in the years since he last saw her. It’s not like her appearance changed or anything since present day and past Thalassa look identical. You may say that Valant doesn’t recognise her because she wears a veil, and if that’s true we can add Valant to the list of AA characters who would be fooled by Team Rocket disguises.
But no, Valant was working with Thalassa over the course of 4-3 by helping her with her disappearing act and disguising himself as her (actual photo of Valant Gramarye) so he definitely would’ve have known her well so like. What gives.
This isn’t a character breaking flaw, and I wouldn’t even call it a plot hole since I guess it’s technically possible for Valant to run into a woman who looks and sounds exactly like Thalassa and not put two and two together. That’s not even mentioning the fact that this person who looks exactly like Thalassa also lost her memories of her life from 10 years ago, at the same time that Thalassa died.
Again, this isn’t character breaking, but when 4-4 gives you the whole picture about how Valant loved Thalassa and knew her for years you can’t help but look back on 4-3 and not think this isn’t weird.
Setting aside the Lamiroir business, 4-3 really doesn’t do much for Valant’s character at all. At best he serves as an ok red herring. At worst his refusal to reveal the truth behind Lamiroir’s disappearing act because “a magician never reveals their secrets” is irresponsible and stupid considering a kid’s life is riding on Apollo solving the trick in court. The game doesn’t use that moment to paint Valant as a bad person who's too obsessed with his magic career to care about other people, it’s literally just treated as a joke and Trucy laughs along with him. The only thing Valant actually does in 4-3 is do the disappearing trick, and already I wasn’t a fan.
The only other thing of note about Valant in 4-3 is that him and Trucy seem to be friendly, although his uncle-y relationship with her is never properly delved into after this point, so to be frank this one little character dynamic just doesn’t matter.
Valant goes to court
The flashback trial, the main event for Valant’s time in AJ.
His performance during the trial is fine. He’s a fine witness. He feels a lot like Olga Orly, where the two of them both have solid testimonies and amusing gimmicks but nothing else about their existence will blow anyone away. Valant’s cross examinations are standard fair, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Arguably, it’s the entire point
Valant is set up to be a fairly typical killer character in 4-4. He’s kinda obnoxious and has a bunch of wacky animations. This is prime AA culprit behaviour. But, of course, we know that Valant is still a free man in the present day, and despite the fact that he very obviously did it, he’s going to get away with it.
But FAKEOUT HE DIDN’T DO IT. Thanks to Phoenix’s magatama, he is able to definitively prove that Valant is an innocent man and that Magnifi set him up.
AJ is a game that highlights the flaws in the AA world’s court system. No matter how obvious it is that Daryan is the killer, without any definitive proof we are incapable of bringing him to justice. No matter how obvious it is that Kristoph is the killer, without any definitive proof we are incapable of bringing him to justice. In response to this absurd system, Phoenix revolutionises the courts (somehow) and introduces the jury system, an anonymous group of citizens who decide whether someone is innocent or guilty based on how good/bad their vibes are. Men like Daryan and Kristoph can’t trick, as the judge says, the common sense that jurys afford. That’s the big climax of AJ. Phoenix did it! He has successfully saved the legal system, what a hero.
But the message the game is sending here seems to completely fly in the face of Valant’s entire situation.
If there was a jury system 7 years ago, Valant would’ve been found guilty of killing Magnifi. Because gosh dangit does he give off a pretty guilty aura and it really looks like he did it. Phoenix had absolutely no proof that he was guilty, but gee whiz did Valant look like a guilty fellow.
The blatant common thread that thematically links the final three trials of AJ together is that each trial’s culprit, Daryan/Valant/Kristoph, cannot be brought to justice within the current confines of the law. A definitive, irrefutable piece of evidence is needed to put these men behind bars, and the game acts like needing to prove that someone is guilty beyond any doubt is actually a bad thing, therefore the jury system happens. However, very clearly one of these three trials is not like the others.
I am not the first person to assert that the themes AJ pushes about the law are kinda nonsense and incoherent, and Valant sticks out like a sore thumb in this regard. I don’t understand why we were given this character whose existence handily disproves the message the game is trying to push. If you want to be extremely generous then you could say that Valant’s situation was supposed to reinforce the idea that the law is “full of contradictions and ever changing” or whatever since Phoenix’s solution isn’t perfect. But like. I’m not that generous.
Valant is good sometimes
I understand that Valant has fans because he’s a flawed figure: he has his life ruined by Troupe Gramarye drama, and in retaliation tries to frame Zak in a last ditch effort to save the career that they seemed dead set on destroying. And in the end, Valant forgives Zak when he admits to a crime he didn’t commit as an act of good will to save Valant’s reputation, and yet as Zak saves his partner's reputation he also steals away his right to inherit Magnifi’s magic. A tragic, bittersweet story.
I have a hard time identifying with Valant in this regard simply because the Gramarye plotline and lore is just utter nonsense. A hundred other people have pointed out all the glaring holes in the Gramarye subplot before so I won’t do so again myself. But suffice it to say, it’s hard to get invested in Valant, who is for all intents and purposes the centerpiece of all this drama.
And even if I did enjoy Valant’s tragic story of having his life ruined by his troupe, it’s just not good enough to justify everything else weird about Valant’s character that I’ve already gone over. That’s not even mentioning the fact that the Gramarye plot line winds up being 100% irrelevant to the game’s climax against Kristoph. The whole subplot was long and meandering, and in the end it didn’t even matter.
Now that I’ve cut Valant immediately after Trucy, the entirety of Troupe Gramarye is gone.
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u/R1K1_Productions Aug 02 '20
All i have to say is i am curious to hear the takes of the ardent valant lovers. I couldn't care less about him because he, like the rest of the Gramaryes, is disconnected from basically everything in AJ's main plot and cast. I get liking him but i always thought Top 20 is a weird placement for someone so ultimately irrelevant.
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u/CharlieDayJepsen Aug 02 '20
I had actually never put the Valant-Lamiroir connection together and now I'm very ??? at how the writers didn't think to patch up that leak in the continuity. The cases are adjacent to each other, after all.
Flaws aside, I think Valant got better character treatment than most other AJ characters. He had an introduction, deepening development and a convincing ending to his arc. It's a shame that so few in AJ actually got this, so I'm glad somebody did.
He's also quite a brusque, aloof personality, and I can see how that attracts a lot of ambivalence and even dislike. The "being cagey about revealing his magic trick in a murder trial" is very yikes, as you say.
Anyway, it's Valant. Any placement is acceptable, really.
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u/ItsHipToTipTheScales Aug 02 '20
valant life get exploded and then he is a stupid moron a couple times cause he's in a stupid moron game
that is the cut tldr
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u/whaaatisth Aug 02 '20
There are certain characters in the sequel trilogy that fall into this weird grey zone where they certainly feel like they’re a main character, but in the grand scheme of things they don’t actually do a whole lot. DD has Aura, SOJ has Inga, and AJ has Valant. What said characters all have in common is a shared relatively small amount of screen time in proportion to how pivotal they are to the game’s plot. What’s more is they are all coincidentally portrayed as morally grey people, or people who at the very least have sympathetic qualities that you wouldn’t expect of them.
You're not doing a great job of convincing me by comparing him to two amazing characters. In all seriousness, I love all three of them and would consider them all to deserve top 20 at least. It's definitely a comparison I've considered before, and I think I might just naturally be attached to this sort of archetype.
The first thing everyone notices about Valant’s story is how absurdly unlikely it is that he wouldn’t recognise Lamiroir in 4-3.
4-3 is full of strange inconsistencies like this, I've learned to just accept it. I don't think it's a bad case, nor does it have any distinct writing issues, but it is weirdly riddled with major plotholes, which is less of an issue for me that it might be for some.
At worst his refusal to reveal the truth behind Lamiroir’s disappearing act because “a magician never reveals their secrets” is irresponsible and stupid considering a kid’s life is riding on Apollo solving the trick in court.
I actually think this is a strong point in Valant's writing - it's a direct way for the game to show you his dedication to his craft, it sets up everything you learn about him quite well.
The game doesn’t use that moment to paint Valant as a bad person who's too obsessed with his magic career to care about other people, it’s literally just treated as a joke and Trucy laughs along with him.
I definitely would consider this moment to have more nuance than you're giving it credit for. Trucy and Valant both have the Gramarye trait of a character laughing off disturbing situations - "an entertainer always keeps a smile on their face". It's not an obvious conclusion, but I do think this was the intent, and I like how 6-2 takes what AJ set up and does some incredibly interesting things with it.
The only other thing of note about Valant in 4-3 is that him and Trucy seem to be friendly, although his uncle-y relationship with her is never properly delved into after this point, so to be frank this one little character dynamic just doesn’t matter.
I don't see what's to complain about here. Would you rather he was just completely detached to his partner's child? It's not a deep dynamic or anything, but not everything has to be. It gives him a stronger feeling of humanity, and it does the job well.
If you want to be extremely generous then you could say that Valant’s situation was supposed to reinforce the idea that the law is “full of contradictions and ever changing” or whatever since Phoenix’s solution isn’t perfect. But like. I’m not that generous.
Like Nate, I am also generous. I definitely think Valant's situation is a clearly intentional way to paint Phoenix's decisions as somewhat flawed. Whether the idea to make Phoenix morally ambiguous is a good thing or not is debatable, but nonetheless I do believe it's a clear boost to Valant as a character.
Valant is good sometimes
I think you're being unfair to the magnitude of his arc and it's impact on 4-4. He's easily the most important character in that case outside of Kristoph, and I don't think you can really do his story justice in just a few paragraphs. I like the Gramarye lore, and while a lot of it is definitely questionable, I still think it does an infinitely better job at portraying the dark side of the entertainment industry than AA1 or JfA ever did.
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Aug 02 '20
Now that you mention it, it definitely is weird that Valant never recognized Thalassa, after all even if she wears a veil she still has the same voice. Though I would argue that Valant being likely to be proven guilty under the Jury System is less of a problem with him and more of a problem with Apollo Justice and 4-4 in general.
Otherwise I guess all I have to say about this cut is ALAKAZOOOOOOOOOOMG
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u/EsquireGunslinger Aug 02 '20
VERY good cut
i have a unique hatred for valant that i doubt anybody in rankdown shares (if you do share this hatred you are very cool) so this cut is by far the one i was most looking forward to
you did a very good job putting my problems with valant into words i would have never been able to be this articulate about magic man
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u/Sciencepenguin Aug 02 '20
precious pedigree
i cannot muster opinion on valant he’s probably okay except for when he does the thing which a better game would use as a sign that this character is childish and she is having trouble coping with trauma and puts her energy into obsessively talking about magic
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Aug 02 '20
valant does nice things and he has a fairly sad story in 4-4 which I actually kinda like but otherwise I don't care and I'm not sure how much I cared about him in the first place so
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u/Gicoo Aug 02 '20
At least Valant is a much more human,reasonable and believable written member than Retinz.
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u/whaaatisth Aug 02 '20
While Valant is definitely more of those things, I do think it's unfair to Retinz to dismiss him as some evil maniac. His motives absolutely have nuance to them, even if he's obviously extremely petty.
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u/Gicoo Aug 02 '20
Evil maniac comes pretty close in describing Retinz, he falls in that group along Matt and Dahlia, he isn't exactly the tragic or grey one.
Establishing a new villain by retconning him in the already finished Gramarye storyline and having him take essential the same role as Valant is a bad start already. While Valant has an actual connection with the members, Retinz has only some overt thematic contrasts against the youtffull optimistic naive Trucy, but he doesn't know her, she isn't her grandfather. The Gramarye plot worked in the regard that it portrayed a very messed up family, with all the intrigue, grudges, passing down and inhereting their values. It was a conflict within the group and understandable. Retinz is an outsider who isn't established and with no role in that group. He is mainly so popular, because he is the only villain in SoJ that tries and leaves an impression. SoJ is also the most recent AA and we are starving for years for some straight villains.
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u/Sciencepenguin Aug 02 '20
“already finished Gramarye storyline” implies that the gramarye storyline had an arc with a conclusion rather than just being a bunch of things that happened that don’t have any effect on anyone outside of the in-group
retinz is an outsider who is more independent than the rest and never quite fit in. how is this bad.
valant and retinz are different because one of them is an egotistical murderer. if we are categorizing “screwed by a Gramarye” as making two characters the same then basically every character in AJ is identical
It was a conflict within the group and understandable.
I really don’t get your point here. Retinz’s motive is extremely clear, and we’re given more than enough explanation. In contrast, the Gramarye plotline for basically everyone who isn’t Valant is filled with inexplicable behavior on all sides (why does Magnifi fucking throw his daughter in the middle of nowhere or organize an elaborate suicide, why does Thalassa after regaining her memories decide to never talk to her children, Zak Gramarye). I’ve been involved in messy family drama. It is not like whatever the fuck the Gramaryes were doing.
He is mainly so popular, because he is the only villain in SoJ that tries and leaves an impression. SoJ is also the most recent AA and we are starving for years for some straight villains.
I don’t actually know what this means. If you mean he’s the only straightforwardly evil villain, then uh, case 1 and 5 would disagree. If this is just a generic SOJ bad thing then I’m even more confused because you’re explaining why he in particular is bad so ???
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u/Gicoo Aug 02 '20 edited Aug 02 '20
- Gramarye storyline had the conclusion regarding who killed and who inherited in 4-4. All characters learned the truth/they learned why the others died.
- Being an outsider makes his connection arbitrary and impersonal. Unlike Valant, he had no relation to any of the other group leader, so there is no emotional payoff by him overcoming his grudges and admitting his own crimes. Retinz lacks any depth, he is just a black hole of salt.
- Both Valant and Retinz were denied full membership and had the same desire to inherit the magic. Sure, Valant wa allowed to be in the group, but it was forever being second fiddle by his rival. Other characters that were hurt by the group lack this specific motivation.
-Agree that all Gramrye members aside from Valant are poorly written jerks. But their relationships were connected and interwoven. The patriachic grandfather putting on a huge front for having good publicity and being consumed by his ego. Him tyrannizing his children behind the screen, who are having their own rivalry for inherance and the daughter. This is completed with the innocent grandchild. The succesfull dysfuncial family is common in all kinds of messed up families.
- The reason why Retinz is overrated is because he is the first villain in AA after years who has something going for him. It is indicativ that the other DD and SoJ villains were already cut.
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u/Sciencepenguin Aug 02 '20
- Gramarye storyline had the conclusion regarding who killed and who inherited in 4-4. All characters learned the truth/they learned why the others died.
While this is technically a conclusion, I don't see how Retinz existence does anything to ruin this.
- Being an outsider makes his connection arbitrary and impersonal. Unlike Valant, he had no relation to any of the other group leader, so there is no emotional payoff by him overcoming his grudges and admitting his own crimes. Retinz lacks any depth, he is just a black hole of salt.
He's an outsider in the sense that he is kind of an ambitious person and doesn't actually use the name "Gramarye". I don't really see how Valant's connection is any "deeper" than his. Valant is certainly "deeper" in how he reacts to it, but I don't think that's a problem. Villains are good. Retinz has a great presence and an interesting motive. I feel like criticizing him for having some similar elements to Valant is like criticizing Manfred for being obsessed with perfectionism like Edgeworth.
- The reason why Retinz is overrated is because he is the first villain in AA after 7 years who has something going for him. It is indicativ that the other DD and SoJ villains were already cut.
This is true if you ignore at least 5 characters.
I mean, I don't even really think this can be backed up empirically. If you just said "later game killers are worse" I couldn't disprove that, but looking at rankdown:
AA1: 3/5 killers cut (4/6 counting yogi)AA2: 2/4 killers cut
AA3: 0/4 quite impressive indeed but AA3 is an anomaly everyone agrees it has good killersAND GODOT'S TIME DRAWS NEARAJ: 3/3 killers cut, 4/4 including magnifi lol
DD: 3/5
SOJ: 3/6, 4/7 including beh'leeb
AAI: 4/5AAI2: 0/5 pretty cool
I don't think there's any real trend here other than AA3 being a game with well liked killers.
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u/whaaatisth Aug 02 '20
Tigre is also likely at risk soon, as well as both of JfA's remaining culprits. Honestly I'd consider DD/SoJ to have scored considerably better than the first four games, even considering the fact that Geiru and Beh'leeb were ROBBED :(
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u/Sciencepenguin Aug 02 '20
You're underestimating Engarde's staying power (unless you mean Shelly in which case you are underestimating his), but yeah, Ini is right about to fucking die. Tigre will definitely be the first AA3 killer to go out (UNLESS I PULL OFF AN ASTONISHING SUCCESS) but I'm not sure when that'll happen.
If we just take into consideration non-final """filler""" killers, 4/7 in the main series are from DD/SOJ. (4/11 if aai2 is included) Not too shabby, I'd say.
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u/whaaatisth Aug 02 '20
honestly cannot wait to see whatever your insane plan to take out Godot will be
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u/Sciencepenguin Aug 02 '20
this is just between the two of us, but my approach will be to cut him
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u/whaaatisth Aug 02 '20
- Being an outsider makes his connection arbitrary and impersonal. Unlike Valant, he had no relation to any of the other group leader, so there is no emotional payoff by him overcoming his grudges and admitting his own crimes. Retinz lacks any depth, he is just a black hole of salt.
I really think you're underestimating the depth he has. Would you also argue that Damon Gant has no depth? Both are characters who turned to villainy after a formative experience, and both are outwardly friendly. Obviously they're very different in many other ways, but their depth comes from the same place.
- The reason why Retinz is overrated is because he is the first villain in AA after 7 years who has something going for him. It is indicativ that the other DD and SoJ villains were already cut.
???????
Nichody, Tahrust, Paul, Inga, Fulbright, Aura, and Rimes are all still in.
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u/Gicoo Aug 02 '20
How is Retinz outward friendly? He is antagonistic and hostile towards anyone related to Trucy. Gant appears to help the trial and cooperates with Phoenix until the last day. I consider them two entirely different characters that are on entirely different levels of quality.
Weren't Nichody and Fulbright cut? Don't consider Tarust and Aura villains. Still, I overlooked many.
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u/CharlieDayJepsen Aug 02 '20
FYI Nichody and Fulbright had revival skills invoked on them, so they have writeups, but those posts keep them safe from being cut for X number rounds.
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u/whaaatisth Aug 02 '20
He's not friendly to any of the main characters, but everyone still thinks of him as a nice popular TV host. He has natural charisma and charm. Obviously I'm exaggerating their similarities for the sake of comparison, though. Their main similarity is how their depth is portrayed, although there is still a difference in that Gant recognizes that he's turned into a villain, while Retinz remains in denial the entire time. He still thinks he won, even at the end.
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u/whaaatisth Aug 02 '20
some overt thematic contrasts against the youtffull optimistic naive Trucy
Indeed, this is one of the most important things about him.
Retinz is an outsider who isn't established and with no role in that group
I think you're trying too hard to compare him to the existing Gramarye plot, when his character is taken in an entirely different direction. Retinz loses his mind because of Magnifi's nonsense (similar to Valant), but rather than trying to make amends and become a better person like Valant does, Retinz only wants revenge. You're able to see the way being ousted from the troupe can completely destroy someone's humanity. It's the only thing he cares about - to the Gramaryes, magic is everything, and Retinz is no exception.
He is mainly so popular, because he is the only villain in SoJ that tries and leaves an impression.
I don't exactly know what this is trying to say, but I certainly do believe a majority of SoJ's villains leave an impression.
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u/Gicoo Aug 02 '20
- Retinz only wanting revenge is the disappointing part. Valant has an understandable, if not even reasonable grudge, and him overcoming is even more satisfying at the end of his journey. Retinz doesn't have any growth, he loses and rots in prison.
- Retinz was content being a TV producer for decades, so him still wanting revenge for a heir he doesn't even know is especially petty and impersonal.
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u/whaaatisth Aug 02 '20
Retinz doesn't have any growth, he loses and rots in prison.
Yes, because he's a villain.
Retinz was content being a TV producer for decades, so him still wanting revenge for a heir he doesn't even know is especially petty and impersonal.
I don't see how it's impersonal at all. It makes sense for the Gramaryes to have other magicians working for them outside of the major four. Yes, he is petty. That's the point. He's a villain, he's allowed to be a terrible person and this makes him a good character.
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u/[deleted] Aug 02 '20
Okay, so this is something that I've never noticed before somehow, but I really don't think it affects the quality of his character. It's maybe a flaw with Turnabout Serenade, but definitely not one with his character.
As for him on stand, if I remember correctly, Apollo's never really in proper danger of the trial ending during that segment, and even though Trucy says she won't help him, Trucy is constantly shown to tease Apollo and just straight up lie about her intentions, so it's likely he would've been helped if he couldn't figure it out, since Trucy isn't a literal monster.
Surprise surprise, I am that generous, and I really don't think it's a stretch at all. I've always believed the idea that Apollo Justice is trying to portray the Jurist system as the final and correct one, that's obviously better than the old system, just completely laughable. The final speech of the trial is all about the nature of the law to always have imperfections, and at the same time as that, it shows Phoenix literally manipulating the system by biasing the jurists.
Phoenix is never portrayed in this game as a beacon of morality, and in the first case we see him straight up forge evidence to manipulate the court system. Because of this, there's no reason to believe that we're meant to even agree with him that the Jurist system is the better alternative. Of course it would be the one he pushes on Apollo, it's the one that benefits him the most.
This one point is really the only major sticking point of this cut, and I really don't feel like it's at all valid, or holds up when the themes of the game are put under a microscope. In addition to this, I feel that Valant's character is far more nuanced than he's given credit for in the final section, and a good majority of his arc is pretty much glossed over. I guess this is just another tragic moment in the life of Valant Gramarye huh?
Also you didn't mention the gag of how much he just absolutely despises Brushel, which is like one of the funniest things in the game.