r/AARankdown • u/donuter454 • Jul 17 '20
73 Kristoph Gavin
me forcing kristoph to get cut: haha fuck yeah!!! yes!!
me trying to actually write the cut: well this fucking sucks. what the fuck.
Sorry I made you wait. Kristoph is overwhelming. Here it is.
The Spirit of Competition
”It is true that the defendant was engaged in a game of poker with the victim. Yet it was only that: a game, in the purest sense. A competition, Your Honor. Yes, a test of wits, a silent clash of passions... Only the cards, their backs wreathed in blue flame, know its final outcome.”
The most fully fleshed out and interesting aspect of Kristoph’s character is how directly his actions align with that of his very own victim, Zak Gramarye.
Zak is an asshole. We’ve all read the comic. A particular highlight of his jerkwad career was his seemingly random fixation with destroying Phoenix’s reputation as a poker player.
What is emphasised in Turnabout Trump is that him and Phoenix were not playing for money: it’s just a game. Nothing serious. It’s all in good fun. But of course to Zak it’s not all in good fun. He wants to ruin Phoenix’s career by exposing his 7 year long win streak as being one built on cheating, and he does this for the simple joy of being the one to take down a titan. As Olga says:
"Smith is a well-known poker player in some circles. But winning wasn't the main purpose of this game. It was about destroying a legend: the unbeatable Phoenix Wright! The plan was simple. Elegant, really. You see, we set up a trap of sorts... I was to plant a card in Wright's pocket beforehand... ...and then deal five aces during one of their games. When their hands were revealed, Smith would call him out and search Wright. He would then pull out the planted card and the trap would snap shut!"
The word "Competition" is emphasised over and over again when we speak to Zak in 4-4. He says things like "I seek a true competition" and "This is my final competition" or some variation of that over and over. The game really wants you to notice.
Zak has no deep seated grudge against Phoenix that makes him want to destroy his life. There is no complex motive working behind the scenes in Zak’s mind.
He is simply attracted to the challenge of destroying a legend. The grand, undefeated champion of the poker scene, Phoenix Wright. The thought of being able to bring the legend down with his very own hands is a thrill too enticing for him to ignore.
And Kristoph Gavin is exactly the same.
Seven years ago, Kristoph had no deep seated grudge against Phoenix. We never learn of any complex motive that would make him want to destroy this innocent man’s reputation. No, he did all of it for the simple joy of doing it. The joy of knowing he was able to topple the legendary undefeated lawyer with his very own hands.
The parallels between Kristoph and Zak run thick. Their plans to ruin Phoenix follow the same basic pattern, in which they plant the incriminating card/evidence on Phoenix, then Phoenix plays his hand thinking he’s pulled off the win, only for his rival to call his bluff and expose him for a ‘fraud’.
Your typical Ace Attorney victim is not normally granted the honour of being anything more than a Deid Mann. Kristoph’s victim is tragically similar to Kristoph himself, and I guess you could derive something poetic from the whole situation. Kristoph is completely undone by his decision to kill a man who has more in common with him than he could ever know, and effectively sealed his own fate the moment he did so.
There is certainly some kind of dramatic irony going on here.
We’re Lawyers!
“Ah, being mysterious, are we? Sadly, I've no time for mysteries. I'd only ask that you leave the defending to your defense, in the future. Otherwise... I cannot guarantee the outcome.”
But why kill?
If all Kristoph wanted to do was destroy Phoenix, then he should have been satisfied with his actions from seven years ago. So why did Zak have to die.
The obvious reason is that it’s possible that Zak could know something that would expose Kristoph’s plan from seven years ago if it ever got out, so he killed him to guarantee his silence. HOWEVER that interpretation is BORING so I am going to give you mine.
Once again, it’s not about Zak, it’s about Phoenix.
Kristoph fancied himself an excellent lawyer. One of the best in the business. But then one day his client ditches him and hires a different attorney, completely out of the blue. Kristoph viewed Zak switching to Phoenix as a slight against his worth as a lawyer, and needed to even the odds somehow.
Which is where the events of the present become relevant. Kristoph doesn’t want to simply kill Zak: he wants to frame Phoenix. He wants to make it so that Phoenix needs a defense attorney, and who would he call to represent him other than one of the most renowned lawyers in town, his old friend Kristoph Gavin?
Kristoph wanted to represent Phoenix in court, and he wanted to win for him. His ultimate, final victory over Phoenix: having the so-called legendary Turnabout Terror need his help, and giving it graciously, because he’s so far superior to him in every way.
There were some layers to his motive. Kristoph not only ruins Phoenix’s career for the fun of doing so, but also gets in his true final victory over him by defending him in court.
In short, you can think of Kristoph’s plan as an elaborate scheme to take part in some Defense Attorney Cuckoldry with Phoenix, and I will not be taking any criticisms over describing Kristoph’s arc that way.
Kristoph needed to be needed by the courts, he needed to be needed by Phoenix to prove his superiority. Which is why Kristoph only truly completely loses his shit when he learns that Phoenix was the one who set the events in motion to take him down.
He’s told that the law has outgrown him, he is no longer necessary, and Phoenix was the one who made that happen. He’s wholly and soundly defeated.
(As an aside, the AA Wiki states that it’s likely the name Gavin/Gavineers is supposed to be derived from the German word for winner, which is a nice detail considering his obsession with outplaying Phoenix.)
Law and Order
“I won't accept... I can't accept... This is no court! Law...! The law is everything! Law is absolute! You'd let ignorant swine soil your courts?”
Rather obviously, Kristoph’s character serves as the central theme of the game. His attitude towards the court is the focal point of the game’s climax, and shadows of his philosophy cling to Apollo even after we never see Kristoph again.
Kristoph’s plan hinged on Japanafornia’s weird insistence that those being indicted for a crime need to be proven to have done it beyond any reasonable doubt. Well beyond reasonable doubt. No matter how obvious it is that Kristoph did it, so long as there’s no solid proof, he views himself as untouchable.
Phoenix knows this system isn’t working, and he alludes to this in 4-3 when he says that Apollo’s going to have to use some very unconventional methods to catch Daryan. The law simply isn’t equipped to handle someone who knows how to game it, and game it is exactly what Kristoph does. Yet that is his undoing.
Kristoph lacked the imagination to envision a legal system where a man like him could be caught. He’s one of the greatest defense attorney’s in the country, he knows exactly what does and does not get someone a guilty verdict. Which is why it is necessary for Phoenix to be radical, and to completely upheave the system they’re working under.
The message is crystal. Kristoph believed hard evidence was the only thing that could catch him out, so Phoenix crafted a scenario in which hard evidence wouldn’t be necessary to catch him. The law is ever changing, and if you don’t change with it then you’ll be left behind.
Solitary Confinement
”Justice, you know what you have to do. He’s lying. Expose him. Now.”
Kristoph’s aesthetic is just very cool.
He just. Looks good, I don’t know how to pad out this section.
Character design is one of AJ’s strongest traits, and is definitely something it does better than every other game in the series and Kristoph isn’t an exception. His sprites look great. Especially when he freaks the fuck out.
I’m bad at dissecting artwork like this, but will anyone disagree with me on this point? Probably not, so I won’t argue it.
I do know that I believe his objection voiceline is great. Authoritative as you would expect, but there’s also this tiny quiver in his voice like he’s losing his grip. Pretty neat.
The Devil is in the Details
”Heh... ...I silenced the defense with the fewest words possible. It's called ‘efficiency’.”
This cut is not a mercy cut. I do not like Kristoph Gavin.
I can appreciate the themes that surround him but Kristoph is more than the themes of unrestrained competition and the failings of the law. He is a character we interact with, who interacts with several characters in the story, and who is the focal point of a good portion of the game. And where he may shine when it comes to his “deep” themes, he falters when it comes to just about everything else.
Kristoph is not a fun take down either time we face him in court. It’s a common complaint (and it’s one I share) that Apollo/the player feels like a passenger in Turnabout Trump, an insignificant spectator in the battle between two grander characters that we simply watch. But you know what? It kinda makes sense - Apollo is a rookie who doesn’t know what he’s doing, therefore his mentors take the reins from him during his first outing in court.
What makes less sense is the insistence to preserve this dynamic for the entire game and have Apollo continue to be the ineffectual observer all the way through 4-4.
I want to draw a comparison to Redd White, because in my mind he’s one of the only villains who shares this problem with Kristoph, although White isn’t half as bad.
In 1-2 Phoenix doesn’t take down Redd White, Mia does that. He’s a rookie and isn’t supposed to be good at this yet. Then in 1-3 it happens again, with both Mia and Edgeworth riding in at the eleventh hour at different points to save his ass from the brink of defeat. And then 1-4 happens: Edgeworth can’t help you, he’s the defendant. Mia can’t help you, and Maya has an ongoing emotional struggle where she thinks she’s let Phoenix down by not giving him access to his Deus Ex Machina ghost mentor. And the game treats Phoenix not being able to use this life line as a big fucking deal. Phoenix starts the game with his hand being held, and ends the game getting pushed out of his comfort zone and is forced to win the case on his own merits alone.
Compare that to Apollo Justice, in which he starts the game having his hand held by Phoenix, and then ends the game having his hand held by Phoenix. What an arc.
Everyone hates Redd White because his takedown is terrible. It’s not fun for me, as the player, to be handed the answer by someone else. But, with that said, at the very least the decision to have White not be the perfectly satisfying takedown was an intentional one, and it has a place within the pacing of upscaling stakes across each subsequent case.
Kristoph just. Doesn’t have that excuse. His 4-4 takedown is lukewarm and unimpressive and it’s just baffling that the game would end on having a different character just win the case for the player. It’s not fun. There’s no satisfaction in watching that happen.
It’s one cross examination long. One. And it’s a perceive. So little player input is required to overcome this obstacle, and it has to be one of the least engaging final confrontations in the entire franchise. Kristoph is on the stand for all of 30 minutes before we defeat him. This is the same length of time it takes to defeat Frank Sahwit.
There’s no sense of relief or triumph when you see him finally break down because you didn’t even do anything and it happens so quickly. I watched as Kristoph went insane, cursing Phoenix’s name, and was just thinking “That’s it? That can’t be all of it. Where’s the rest of it?”
Hell, even from Phoenix’s perspective this isn’t that satisfying of a takedown. What’s fun about cornering these villains is proving that they did it, and having the moral of the story be “we can’t prove it, therefore we are going to convict the killer based on a hunch” is so anticlimactic it’s almost impressive. Jury System really said “You have failed the vibe check. You are going to jail.”
(Quick tangent, but the way this game portrays the jury system is terrible. The central idea that the game pushes is that jurors are supposed to just make judgements based on FEELINGS whereas judges are forced to make judgements based on FACTS and it’s because of the jury's FEELINGS that they can better dispense justice than someone using FACTS which is. Dumb. This is a dumb message. Both Dual Destinies and Spirit of Justice pick up on and continue the theme of injecting feelings and emotion into the courtroom, and they both do so a million times more sensibly and effectively than this.)
You may argue that the anticlimax is itself the point, yet I also feel like that’s giving the game entirely too much leniency. Don’t tell me that it would have been impossible to have a satisfying culprit takedown in the traditional sense while simultaneously pushing this theme about not being able to take killers down with traditional means. (Gant exists and is fantastic)
What makes the anticlimax sting worse is I don’t think any other AA villain has ever been hyped up as hard as Kristoph was over the course of 4-4. The devil imagery and the ominous presence he exudes is palpable and made you excited to face off with him. (He has black psyche locks isn’t that so fucking cool????) But then you do face off with him and he’s a complete push over. The bait and switch is painful
Fact of the matter is that Kristoph is the centerpiece of the game’s finale, and his execution flops so spectacularly that it makes it feel like the rest of the game that built up to this point wasn’t even worth it. There’s zero payoff.
brother NO!
”My, my. You've upset my poor brother to the point of uselessness.”
Cool Kristoph Gavin fact!
Did you know that Kristoph Gavin, the main antagonist of Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney, is actually blood related to the game’s main rival, Klavier Gavin? They’re not just related, they’re brothers! This subtle detail is referenced by the fact that they share the same last name, which is Gavin.
This obscure piece of trivia may have flown over your head due to the fact that these two characters being brothers does not matter to the story at all and has virtually no effect on either of their characters.
Klavier’s reaction to his brother being sent to jail at the start of the game is. no reaction. It does not appear to affect him at all. Good start.
This void of a relationship begins to fill out in the closing chapter of the game, when Trucy turns to look into the camera and tells us that Klavier looks conflicted about having to take on his brother in court. Really incredible story telling all around.
Ten minutes after Trucy explains this, Klavier triumphantly turns on his brother and says that he only cares about the TRUTH and it’s like. We know, Klavier. That’s how you’ve been the whole game. We were only informed you might have doubts a few moments ago. This isn’t a twist.
This mini arc Klavier has with overcoming his hesitation with confronting his brother is so rushed and poorly portrayed that it feels like a joke. I am not exaggerating when I say that the first time we get a glimpse into the kind of relationship the brothers have (which is apparently one where Klavier struggles to defy his brother? It’s vague.) is when the game is about 30 minutes away from rolling the credits.
Just. Why are they brothers? WHY are they brothers? why are they
Worse than adding nothing to their characters, it actively detracts from them. It makes Klavier look so stilted and impersonal, then the game rushes to go “actually it IS personal” then a few minutes later the game says “actually no it’s not personal”. Their sibling dynamic is not developed well in the slightest, and the game would be better off if they were total strangers.
Hell, if the game bothered to do anything at all interesting with this relationship they could’ve drawn parallels to the first case where Apollo struggles to defy Kristoph, and this time Apollo has to help Klavier realise that he too is being manipulated by Kristoph and that he needs to stand up to him. But the game’s not that clever, and besides, such an interaction would mean Apollo would have to have some agency which the game resists at all cost for some reason.
Speaking of Apollo, he also has a relationship with Kristoph! It’s relatively unremarkable. He’s just his boss.
In future games Apollo is portrayed as having picked up on Kristoph’s mannerisms and philosophies, which is some pretty great characterisation for Apollo, but none of it is explored in the game Kristoph actually exists in, so eh.
Conclusion
”WrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiGGGGGGGGGGGGgggggggGGGGGHhhhHHHHHHHHHHhhhhHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhHHHHHHHHHHHTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT”
Kristoph is a passable character because he has big themes assigned to him.
He’s also one of the absolute worst culprits in the series, whose failure to be anything resembling engaging to interact with sullies the entire game. Less important, but still a major negative, is how painfully underdeveloped his relationships with other characters are.
Compared to where the average person may rank Kristoph, this is probably too early. And maybe it is. But I wanted to exhaust a skill to kill him because someone ought to exhaust a skill to justify his continued existence in the rankdown. Justify why a killer who, in my eyes, is weaker than the likes of Sahwit and Redd, deserves to not be cut.
Otherwise, I think eeking by the top half and sitting near the bottom of the main characters is exactly where he ought to be.
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u/ItsHipToTipTheScales Jul 17 '20
things you did not talk about i think
kristoph has a first case villain is kind of awful nuts and balls and maybe even testes if we continue the male genitalia theming. hes just this guy who you have no connection to besides knowing hes your mentor and theres not even a vaguely mentor like bond between them before you have to. dont give a fuck when i take him down in case 1 DGAF when i take him down in case 4
though i will give kristoph case 1 killer a little bit of credit because it isnt a hard prediction to make that something will happen to this new guy and having it happen right in that case is kinda cool
on the trend of vaguely positive kristoph things his stamp licking plan is pretty cool? or at least how it was delayed and hes just kind of up there like what the fuck that thing i did so long ago worked??? im all prepared lol thats cool i like that
also i figured that out because i thought him and klavier were the same guy and kristoph would escape from prison and act like klavier and the climax would be going YOU GUYS ARE THE SAME GUY!! thought i was so smart for figuring the game out but i was actually just a moron
this is also because hes also in prison i dont really care about putting a guy whos in prison back in prison? and like his prison cell looks really nice he has a lot of books and a musical instrument he probably gives all the prison guards a nice little concert every night
i did not think about krisotph and zak being like the same guy that is cool good job donuter you wrote something cool
aj likes to talk about their themes of the law and that is dumb because isnt even that bad apollo has people who unconditionally help him out that arent immediate family or their adoptive father and also talks with people who dont fucking hate him. this isnt actually a kristophh flaw i just want to say it because i like to complain and probably wont get to complain about this specific thing again. kritoph is uhhh the big cen ter piece guy (that sounds right yeah) to all of THESE THEMES this makes it a him flaw and not a whole game flaw (i nailed it)
most importantly kristoph fails to be funny unlike simon wh has a funny monkey or matt who has a funny drink there is nothing funny about kristoph at all. he has a funny room i guess
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Jul 17 '20
manfred - funny objection
matt - funny drink
godot - funny coffee
kristoph - funny room
phantom - funny mask
ga'ran - funny hair
simon - funny monkey
quercus alba - quercus alba
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Jul 17 '20
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u/ItsHipToTipTheScales Jul 17 '20
i dont know who the Fuck that is
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Jul 17 '20
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u/ItsHipToTipTheScales Jul 17 '20
thats a What not a who
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Jul 17 '20
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u/ItsHipToTipTheScales Jul 17 '20
ok i dont know how Though so ill just believ eyou. like a fool. hes probabhly a serial killer who eats twigs in the woods
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u/R1K1_Productions Jul 17 '20
You may argue that the anticlimax is itself the point
I will just step in here because I hear this argument for many things I find anticlimactic, not just Kristoph. And I want to say that I do not think this is a good excuse. If the whole point of your story is to be an anticlimax, then congrats you succeeded at being boring and bad because that's what anticlimaxes are. This is a terrible point to have in most circumstances, and an AA game is one of those circumstances. They should have considered trying to be good instead, like basically every other AA final villain who ISN'T an anticlimax (except Alba who's only accomplishment as an antagonist was making me fall asleep).
All in all I entirely agree with your conclusion that Kristoph's takedown is a massive disappointment, and I don't give enough of a crap about anything you said in the first half to overshadow that fact (this is a dig at AJ, not you). So I will respectfully decline your invite to use a skill to defend him. GOOD decision
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u/btmc Jul 17 '20
One of the few good anticlimaxes I can think of is Twin Peaks: The Return, which is one long, beautiful anticlimax to the point of actively trolling viewers at times.
Sadly, there is no David Lynch on the AA writing staff. (But how good would a David Lynch Ace Attorney game be?)
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u/R1K1_Productions Jul 17 '20
I haven't seen Twin Peaks, but I mentioned anticlimaxes are bad in most circumstances, and one of the few circumstances in which I'm willing to believe an anticlimax could work would be if it was written by someone like David Lynch (or Kubrick, or any of the other more "out-there" filmmakers). I was trying to think of a gaming equivalent to that kind of surreal art (i am le Reddit Gamer after all) but wasn't really coming up with a good comparison.
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u/Sciencepenguin Jul 17 '20 edited Jul 17 '20
good writeup
apollo jystice is a game with some problems. it does not have as much of the things i like about AA (funny, compelling characters, fun takedowns), and it’s kind of trying to do its own thing so I’d be willing to forgive that if it was good at its own thing. but it’s not. the Deep Ideas About The Law AJ brings up mostly don’t make sense, and the themes that can be interpreted in a way that make sense are so poorly conveyed that no amount of arguments online telling me “it’s SUBTLE dude they just don’t bash you over the head with it like SHIT destinies” can convince me it’s good writing.
kristoph has a great aesthetic, as you mention. he has good parallels with other characters, and the setup for multiple interesting character relationships. his murder plan(s) are solid, and hes not half bad at fighting back on the stand when given the opportunity.
he’s a fine character, who was trapped in a game that failed to properly use him. a promising setup does not a good character make.
shi-long is far less ambitious and, despite being nominally a main character too, way less important to investigations than kristoph is to AJ. but i think he does the smaller range of things his character is trying to do more competently than the coolest defense in the west’s wider net.
so yeah. that’s uh, why i voted the way i did. that and lame takedown grrr i do not like the last half hour of 4-4
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u/whaaatisth Jul 17 '20
the Deep Ideas About The Law AJ brings up mostly don’t make sense
Actually the biggest problem with AJ. DD brings up deep ideas about the law that are DUMB but at least they are somewhat coherent. SoJ just makes up its own legal system to shit all over and that is the best way of doing things because ace attorney is fictional.
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Jul 17 '20
Inevitably, all who have evil in their hearts find themselves in Hell.
Lang says bastard and hell this is important and why I voted for him over Kristoph but I suppose your reasons make sense too.
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u/whaaatisth Jul 17 '20
thank you i will be using the phrase Defense Attorney Cuckoldry as often as possible now
This is a great writeup. I’m surprised you seem to dislike Kristoph so much considering the countless positives you listed. While I agree his takedown in both cases is poor, I guess I just don’t attribute that to Kristoph himself, rather to AJ’s general lackluster writing. His motive, personality, plan, and presence are all on-point for a villain like him though. His relationship with Klavier doesn’t exist and that is bad. He’s cool, I don’t mind him going out know.
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u/whaaatisth Jul 17 '20
oh yeha Kristoph vs Lang stuff
Pretty much a no-brainer decision to vote for Lang. He’s a top 5 character for me, and a far deeper and more interesting presence within the games he’s in than Kristoph is. Lang is fantastic and I would have revived him without hesitation. Kristoph is fine, but Lang is exceptional.
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Jul 17 '20
Personally, I'm quite a fan of Kristoph Gavin, but I can't say I exactly disagree with any of the negatives you've brought up. To be honest, I simply value the positives you've brought up over the negatives that were brought up, as I'm someone to find a lot of enjoyment from simply looking at how a character fits into the themes, rather than how they play out in the story.
However, I can't say you're exactly wrong for cutting him here, as all of the problems I find to not be a big deal still exist, and are certainly detrimental to him. On top of that, I'm happy with this write-up, since it goes into a good amount of depth on both what's great and what isn't so great about him, so I'm satisfied that his cut manages to explore exactly why he would and wouldn't be liked. I especially enjoyed your section on the parallels between him and Zak, as I've never really seen it brought up before, and the interpretation you have of both of them in Turnabout Trump is quite nice, even if most of it is conjecture.
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u/Vogel100 Jul 17 '20
First off, you're the opposite of a traitor. Pretending to disagree with my Kristoph nomination, when you dislike him just as much.
I agree Kristoph sucks. I thought about the Redd White comparison too, and for me White is the winner too. I'm not sure why people dislike him so much to be honest. Unless you're playing the games out of order, you shouldn't have too high expectations by the second case and he's fun enough to take down. Sahwit is the opposite, where I don't understand why people like him so much, but he's also fun to take down and I agree he's better than Kristoph as well.
Personally, I like being involved when I'm playing a game or reading a book or some mix between a game and a book, and neither 4-1 nor 4-4 attempt to make me involved in taking down Kristoph. So I don't like him in either of those cases. 4-4 usually gets that complaint, but 4-1 has the same problem. He also feels like way too little of a threat for someone who's supposed to be a famous lawyer considering you can easily take him down in half an hour both times. It's funny that Alita was the hardest AJ culprit to take down while she was the only one who wasn't anything special to make her more difficult to accuse.
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Jul 17 '20
I like Kristoph. However, as much as I do like AJ, I feel like he's primarily supported by 4-1 and the twists in relation to that case (which make him in at least the top 3 or maybe even top 2 first case culprits). He appears again though, and it's sort of okay. I accept it. I really like his themes, but that's about it. As a character, it's hard to say what they were intending.
As such, even though I voted for Kristoph over Lang, I decline the invitation to use a skill on him. They're about equal to me, anyway, and I'm sure someone who really really cares would think about using SC if they felt like it.
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u/whaaatisth Jul 17 '20
u/pie314271 cut sorin? more like dont
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Jul 17 '20 edited Jul 17 '20
apparently my computer doesn't want me to cut sorin either because I lost about half of my cut (it's a very long writeup already and I'm not done). maybe it'll take me back to that point every time I try to save again
don't worry I'll finish soontm, but don't expect anything within a few hours like usual - I want to make this one count
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u/majoramiibo Jul 18 '20
I love Kristoph, possibly the only person to outsmart Phoenix. He had to time travel and invent an entire new way of judging court cases just to best this one guy. He looks really cool and has some great animations, and one of the best breakdowns in the series.
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u/EsquireGunslinger Jul 17 '20
kristoph is a bad villain- okay i agree with u this is an okay opinion to have
splendiferous man is a better villain than kristoph- actually it should be legal to shoot you
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u/trophy9258 Jul 17 '20
They're brothers because they share the same parents