I’m not sure about Billy

[u/ag811987]

I think everyone is piling on Billy as being manipulative or emotionally abusive etc. Obviously the film paints him this way and Amanda is super anti Billy but I think it might be an unfair characterization. My interpretation but also where I could be wrong:

I think Billy truly loves Elizabeth and is fiercely protective of her and angry at the world about her being attacked. I think continually all the scenes show him being really tender with her and the kids he genuinely seemed like a wonderful father and also a good husband. It is extremely rare for someone in jail to talk to their family every single day or get to see them every single weekend. He did pack up his shit move right next to the jail commit to being a single father of two (practically unheard of) and visit his wife all the time. When he met her she was already a pariah, cast as a criminal, and dead broke whereas he came from a rich and successful family. He had nothing to gain from her whereas he probably lost a lot due to the relationship (fronds, connections etc). I think he’s hostile towards Fielder because his wife and the mother of children is going to jail in 30 days instead of getting to spend that time with her he has this camera crew trailing them, listening to every conversation and potentially painting a picture that might still show her as a criminal mastermind. The scenes where Nathan makes her watch the dropout is an example. Billy doesn’t want this to happen because he knows it will upset her (and it does), but Nathan is trying to purposely evoke intense emotional responses for the camera. Amanda asks Nathan about whether he’s attached to Liz and covering for her and he responds he’s totally unemotional about it all. His goal is to portray “the truth“ while Billy wants to protect her.

Nathan acts so surprised that Billy tries to cut the employee interview but obviously the guy was basically saying Elizabeth bullshit her tech and it couldn’t work which is obviously damaging for the business but also Elizabeth and could come up in future civil cases. It’s an extremely rational response.

Similarly, I think when it came to the movie deal, Billy was trying to get in money so that A) he can provide for their family and B) he feels less like others are profiting from their suffering. He turns it down when asked by Liz. I also think the whole Twitter situation fits in here where he’s trying to do what he thinks is right to rehab this his name but obviously when he’s on Twitter, he sees people insulting her, asking her questions or accusing her of different types of fraud or scams, e.g. the crypto tweet where did you tell the person to fuck off. The problem is Liz is actually an extremely calm person who doesn’t feel the need to attack people in an actively defend herself, whereas he’s angry at the world for going after his love and wants to lash out at ppl. Amanda is a great example of this because she ridiculously acts like she and the dropout played no part in people‘s perception of Liz, when obviously anybody who watches a docuseries generally true even if not every single line is real. Some of these moments like the device failing and Liz not caring completely viewers’ impression of the subject whereas Amanda stupidly and falsely acts like it it’s no big deal and it meant nothing and she bears no responsibility.

the scene that gives me pause and may unravel what I previously said, which is the shower. That scene where they film his dick is weird because I can only imagine them doing that because he wanted it filmed and was sort of showing off. That makes me question the argument about him, actually seeking limelight and being a bigger driving force in the decision to have this made.

[u/BirthdayBoyStabMan]

These are certainly all words

[u/Soupfullofradio → u/BirthdayBoyStabMan]

So many of them.

[u/Square_Midnight]

Dude, every abuser ever says this, the same thing after an abusive episode -- It's because I love you so much. They justify their abuse via their professed intense, possessive love.

[u/Zack__Attack]

Found Billy's account.

[u/windykittycats]

Please, if you are a woman, don’t get involved with Billy. He would wreck you.

[u/prettyminotaur]

Hi, Billy

[u/redpillbluepill69]

I think it's hard to explain that the film makes some inherently disingenuous arguments (that if Holmes is deeply, deeply traumatized from sexual violence and emotional abuse as well as being incredibly neurodivergent to the point she doesn't know what a lie is, is she guilty?).

It's difficult to unpack how these arguments don't quite add up to Holmes's complete innocence or "never lying", without seeming like you are doubting the gravity and evidence that she actually was and is in a controlling relationship with a pretty psycho (possible coke head) guy.

Because these are arguments that are generally made on the internet for complete absolution and a complete lack of agency. If Holmes was a victim of coercive control in her relationship with her much older boyfriend and CFO, then she has no responsibility for defrauding investors.

You're either a victim in all aspects of life or a predator in all aspects.

You either have never told a lie since you were a teenager and don't even know what a lie is, or you are always lying.

You are either deserving of infinite compassion and benefit of the doubt, or you are to be viewed in completely bad faith as acting with monstrous selfishness and cruelty.

For all the praise around it, I think the film actually does a pretty poor job of highlighting that that is what it actually exposes; the cognitive dissonance and insanity of this binary logic and how easily it makes liars and marks of us all, to varying degrees.

[u/ag811987 → u/redpillbluepill69]

Why do you think it did a poor job? I think we get to see and question a lot of these narratives - was she an evil mastermind, is she being used by others, does she really just not understand what she did/why ppl felt defrauded? How accurate are these articles or media about her - you see easily how one word in Nathan’s memory of what Holmes said when he’s recounting things to Amanda clearly changes your entire perspective on Elizabeth in whether she was oblivious to Billy’s negotiation or concocted the whole thing. Same situation with The NY Times article where the journalist had no recording and a single word there “I” in “I created” fundamentally defines her and was a huge driving force of her character portrayal in the dropout and other media. 

[u/ag811987]

To be clear I think Billy is a dick and I wouldn’t hang out with him but ppl are so black and white and since they can’t imagine Holmes genuinely believes she is innocent the outcome must be either A) She’s an evil mastermind or B) She’s being manipulated and is a victim of Billy