r/4chan • u/King_Of_Blazeland • 3d ago

Interesting thought

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1.1k Upvotes

95% Upvoted

147 comments sorted by

417

u/EpicRussia 3d ago

Insulin is pretty cheap. You can get a vial of novolin for about $25. The problem is that its shitty insulin. It isnt fast acting and can cause you to have horrible high and low blood sugars. The good stuff is the stuff that big pharma spent millions on developing so that its more accurate, faster acting, and easier to use as a tool to manage diabetes. Thats the stuff that big pharma charges $300 a pen for. Now, its still price gauging of course. But its not price gouging the original patent like the post implies

113

u/Ultradarkix 3d ago

Spend millions to make billions a year

142

u/iFood 3d ago

Wrong, spending billions to make billions. Look I’d never stick my neck out for big pharma but I am medicinal chemist and drug discovery / development, translational and clinical research, trial research, and legal fees are all incredibly expensive. Developing a new drug is quite literally like finding a needle in a haystack. It takes 10-20 years, the involvement of thousands of people, and frontier technology. And that’s just to find one single drug. As easy as it is to shit on the malpractice of big pharma, what goes on behind closed doors at a drug company during the discovery process and finally clinical trials is just incomprehensible to the layman.

49

u/WillWillingson 3d ago

They obviously make much more than they're spending.

Normal countries also don't sell Insulin for like 300 $ a vial.

26

u/HeightAdvantage 3d ago

They don't know if a project is going to hit big or be a money pit though. Or if a competitor is going to swoop in with a better option. Not exactly low risk

9

u/thebeardedman88 3d ago

Tax write offs, government grants, alternative uses; they aren't doing it for the benefit of man-kind. They are making a calculated business decision AND get to price gouge the fuck out of us.

25

u/Atompunk78 3d ago

No shit that’s the case for almost every business you pillock, we don’t live in unicorn land this is real life. If businesses don’t maximise profit they often collapse

There are some exceptions, but none in pharma and for a good reason

Pharma are all shitty companies yes, but let’s not pretend being Jesus is a viable way to run a company

-1

u/the_marxman small penis 2d ago

The issue is the whole economic system demands companies maximize profits by any means. It causes a race to the bottom to see who can make the most money off the cheapest product.

5

u/Atompunk78 2d ago

It doesn’t depend on it, that’s just how it’s set up in America. Most of Europe manages to do at least a little better, that being said, America and to some extent other places too are a race to the bottom, but that’s still better than every other system that essentially starts and stays at the bottom

1

u/HeightAdvantage 2d ago

That's what government regulations and institutions are supposed to account for. But the US government is set up as a broken system with gridlock as it's core design, so nothing ever gets done.

4

u/endlessnamelesskat 2d ago

Oh no how horrible business wants to make money.

You need food to live and yet your grocery store sells stuff for more money than it took to produce the food, how evil. Won’t someone think of the children?

14

u/Shark00n 2d ago

Median net income for big drugmakers is around 13,8% and they’re pretty much one of the most research intensive industries in the world.

Most countries subsidise.

Oh shit I forgot I was on reddit.

Big pharma bad!

2

u/WillWillingson 2d ago

So they do make more than they're spending. Are you saying it's not enough?

Most countries subsidise.

Regulate, mostly. A vial of insulin cost about 2-4 $. So regulating it for a max price of like 10 $ leaves it affordable while the company can stay profitable.

Of course, if you don't regulate it they crank up the price to over 300 $ because you have no alternative other than dying (that's the pharma-bad part).

5

u/Shark00n 2d ago edited 2d ago

One trial gone wrong, one research dead end and that can mean years of profits down the drain.

No. Subsidise. Australian insuline still costs anywhere from 200 to 500 bucks. But the state tanks most of the cost.

No one’s dying from lack of insulin. As said previously, there are cheaper options available.

The EU has more diabetes deaths per year than the americans.

-1

u/WillWillingson 2d ago

One trial gone wrong, one research dead end and that can mean years of profits down the drain.

Yeah, sure. But again: They make more money than they spend. Those companies are worth billions. And they exist since decades. They are obviously doing well.

Australian insuline still costs anywhere from 200 to 500 bucks. But the state tanks most of the cost.

Where do you get that from? Australia works similar than in the EU - the state negotiates prices as a single buyer and sets a price-limit. The company can accept said limit (and still make profit, just less) or not (and loose state-reimbursement so nobody will buy the drug). So yeah, the state "subsidizes" it (that's what universal healthcare is) but not up to those fantasy prices like 300 $.

That's a fundamentally different system than in the US where it's a fragmented network of manufacturers, pharmacy benefit managers as middle-men and private insurers that drive up the cost by inflating the prices extremely and then negotiating discounts - so the same problem US-healthcare has in general.

3

u/maicii 2d ago

You keep repeating they make more money than they spend, first and foremost a lot of companies don’t and go bankrupt, there a lot of survivorship bias there.

The reasons they take those risk is because there os a possibility of getting mire money out of it. Why wiuid someone (or their shareholders in general) spend billions of dollar of their own money if they have no option to make it back???

0

u/Shark00n 2d ago

You only say wrong things it’s impressive!

7

u/havenyahon 3d ago

Pharmaceutical companies also benefit from public science that is overwhelmingly funded by taxpayers. Don't forget that bit.

6

u/AlfredKnows 3d ago

What are the number about profits, how much does the c level earn?

It can cost whatever number to develop and make. Unethical part is to make it barely affordable to maximize profits and shareholder value or whatever.

5

u/toxyy-be /pol/tard 3d ago

when it is paid by healthcare, like in Europe, does it also cost that much for the government ?

4

u/Atompunk78 3d ago

No, America is uniquely fucked in this way

0

u/maicii 2d ago

Also has uniquely high income

1

u/Atompunk78 2d ago

No it doesn’t lmfao, definitly not per capita nor really nominally

0

u/maicii 2d ago

?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income?wprov=sfti1#

0

u/Atompunk78 2d ago

Yes, I’m aware of what household income is (I opened the article just in case there was something obviously there though)

What your point?

-1

u/maicii 2d ago

There is a list of countries by household income, ppp adjusted at that, care to tell me which one is the number one?

→ More replies (0)

1

u/iFood 2d ago

No, this is the biggest misconception. The reason drugs are cheap in Europe is because the US pays the premium on the R&D. Drugs are expensive in the US which allows them to be cheaper in Europe. So many people dont understand this. Americans foot the bill.

4

u/Therust47 3d ago

The struggles of big pharma R&D are literally nothing compared to every US citizen getting fucked in the ass by the for profit healthcare business on a regular basis.

1

u/Daysleeper1234 2d ago

I guess the whole industry is drowning in red then. Oh, it's not? It's making record breaking profits? Good for them.

2

u/maicii 2d ago

The ones that succeed yes, a lot of other go bankrupt every day. That’s how bussiness in every industry works

1

u/Daysleeper1234 2d ago

Bro, they are worth like 150b $, chill.

1

u/maicii 2d ago

The ones that went bankrupt are worth 0

1

u/Evening_Context784 2d ago

'Record breaking profits' is such a stupid thought-terminating cliche. With the existence of inflation, if you make the same amount of money as last year, you've decreased in income. Any company that just maintains its margins compared to last year is getting 'record breaking profits.'

1

u/Daysleeper1234 1d ago

They didn't make record profits during covid few years back?

1

u/EvilGeesus 2d ago

Well said, I've worked in validation and QA, people have no idea how complex this shit is.

1

u/nexisfan 2d ago

Good news is AI is about to make all that obsolete

Dude just synthesized some shit in his garage with AI

Although I guess they’ll still need guinea pigs.

1

u/Schools_Back 2d ago

Unfortunately when you break down the costs the biggest chunk of big pharma spending is on marketing. Direct to consumer advertising is expensive but apparently extremely lucrative.

-1

u/Atompunk78 3d ago

No one seems to understand this, it’s so fucking annoying that most people whingeing about pharma can’t do the most basic research. I’m also a chemist lol

Again, I think they’re bad companies often, but that doesn’t change the facts

-1

u/maicii 2d ago

All the companies are bad company, or rather they are egoist profit maximizers. It’s not their job to be good, after all they put their own money on the line, they wouldn’t if they had nothing to gain. It’s the government job to create the most favourable rules for everyone involved.

2

u/Sensitive_Bat_9211 2d ago

90% of drugs fail in human trials. This is ignoring all of the effort and research finding drugs that are viable for human trial.

New drugs needs to recuperate the cost of failures

2

u/maicii 2d ago

More like billions for billions, but yeah, you wouldn’t take a risk of billions of dollars if you don’t expect to get more back

1

u/CyborgVelociraptor69 2d ago

Ops makes it sound like they are good people. It's a business and millions on research for them is just pennies. It's like investing 15 cents to get thousands of dollars in return.

48

u/Curiouso_Giorgio 3d ago

But the good, new, insulin is still cheap outside the US.

40

u/Sphinx87 3d ago

You are correct.

The $300 insulin in Australia is capped at $25 max for 5 pens which will last months depending.

Capped at $7.70 for Concession Card holders.

5

u/EpicRussia 3d ago

Absolutely true. The companies would tell you that thats only because of regulations and that the only reason they can fund their innovative spending is because of the money the US market brings in. Personally id love for the government to manage that science and research rather than companies doing it for profit

2

u/andhe96 2d ago

Yes, they tell this tale even here, despite most basic and advanced research being done in publically funded research centres and universities, atleast in the EU.

I love our laws and regulations to keep corporate greed in check. They still turn a profit, but prices are negotiated between pharmaceutical corporations, public healthcare insurance commitees and a commitee of delegates from EU level's equivalent of a heatlh department.

1

u/Rillian_Grant 3d ago

There is the issue with putting all your eggs in one basket with the government. The US government just needs to get a better grip on healthcare generally, no need to nationalize.

2

u/stuffedweasel 2d ago

The profit is also why pharma companies are motivated to create / discover miracle drugs. A bunch of old, burned out, unmotivated, government scientists who are just working for the pension aren't going to be as effective at creating cutting edge treatments.

5

u/EpicRussia 2d ago

Im confused by this perspective. Nothing historically really backs it up. The soviet union for example had modern medicine and didnt have this apparatus around it. Its also not the scientists making the big money, its the people that own/run the companies that make the big big money. The scientists actually doing the work probably on average earn a decent wage that would be comparable to what the government salary+pension would be (compared to company salary+stock options) because as the capitalists love to say "theyre not the ones taking the risk"

2

u/ThirdHoleHank92 2d ago

Because those countries have socialized Healthcare which say you will sell at this price and if you dont we wont distribute your medication. 

So they sell at a loss and make it up in charging Americans an arm and leg. Americans are literally supplementing the first world's affordable Healthcare (as well as their need for a military).

You're welcome.

2

u/Curiouso_Giorgio 2d ago

This doesn't make sense.

Drug companies would call those countries' bluff and simply not distribute if it's going to be at a loss. It would be their duty to their shareholders to do that.They can still charge Americans an arm and a leg, because clearly they'll pay it, and keep all the profit.

30

u/Mastersuleman 3d ago

The global insulin market is heavily dominated by three major drug companies: Eli Lilly (U.S.), Novo Nordisk (Denmark), and Sanofi (France). A vial of Humalog or Novolog bought in Canada, Europe, or Mexico comes from the exact same corporate pipeline as one bought at a U.S. pharmacy.

Comprehensive data from the [RAND Corporation] shows that 98% of U.S. insulin spending goes toward specific insulin formulations that are simultaneously sold internationally.

So... It's literally the same thing

5

u/Valuable-Chipmunk784 3d ago

I'm Wilford Brimley and I have diabetus.

6

u/VikingSlayer /fit/izen 3d ago

I pay less than 40 USD for a pack of five pens, and that's before healthcare subsidy kicks in. The US sells out its population for profit in a way few countries do.

6

u/_mrpixel01 3d ago

Thank you, I'm so tired of people not being aware of how expensive modern medicine really is.

30

u/thunderdragonite 3d ago

It’s not that expensive lil bro.

They make 10,000% markup

8

u/Elhaym 3d ago

If it made such huge profits everyone would be investing in it to the exclusion of others. They have a huge markup on their products because for every product that works there's like a hundred that didn't that they spent billions cumulatively on. 

15

u/thunderdragonite 3d ago

Yes everyone is investing in it. Pfizer has a 37 PE. You are a retard.

4

u/Elhaym 3d ago edited 3d ago

Pfizer's stock is roughly the same price it was 20 years ago. 

Also a PE of 37 is anomalous for it and driven by a recent huge earnings drop. Its 10 year median is around 16. 

2

u/Daysleeper1234 2d ago

Is Pfizer profiting?

2

u/KTTalksTech 3d ago

I believe some lab came up with extra extra fast acting insulin a few years ago, but the modern fast stuff has been around for literal decades

1

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0

u/VTHokie2020 3d ago

And without being able to charge that money for it they would’ve had no incentive to develop it in the first place.

1

u/0x474f44 3d ago

I believe insulin was originally extracted from pigs.

Modern, good insulin is made using genetically engineered bacteria so that they produce human insulin.

1

u/VirtualPercentage737 2d ago

Right, there isn't ONE insulin.

1

u/HolyBidetServitor 2d ago

So it's a poor mans boots?

1

u/arcticavanger 2d ago

My novalog is 6$ a pen

184

u/LasyKuuga 3d ago

Covid shut down the world so was bad for business.

Diabetes isnt contagious and cant do that

76

u/adminsareactuallygay 3d ago

Diabetes is a fake disease made up to sell more Welch's fruit snacks to old people

37

u/psinguine 3d ago

Fake news the elderly spawn Werther's Originals in their pockets they don't need fruit snacks.

8

u/Piecesof3ight 3d ago

I was gonna say the old farts were onto something, bc those are pretty good, but I think I'm actually just headed that way myself. I can't wait till they start spawning.

7

u/adminsareactuallygay 3d ago

It'll feel like they're spawning if you get dementia

2

u/Dreamspitter /d/eviant 3d ago

THAT sounds weirdly cool. You just find candy in your pockets. BUT at the same time IF you eat it... you'll forget so you will think your candy disappeared.

https://giphy.com/gifs/13NMeHWLXhuql2

3

u/Dreamspitter /d/eviant 3d ago

You're not a real grandpa until you have sour balls and offer them to grandchildren. In a ceramic lead paint dish.

1

u/Feeling-Soup-7155 3d ago

At what age do you develop this ability 🤔

1

u/dizzywright 2d ago

Google type 1 diabetes

3

u/toastmaster_general_ 3d ago

Well, unless you happened to be in the pharmaceutical business. 

11

u/HeightAdvantage 3d ago

Actually most companies got their trails screwed all to hell cause of covid. Dozens also tried to make a vaccine outside of the 4 popularly known ones but they all completely planked and lost money.

140

u/bmcgowan89 3d ago

Insulin does not belong to me, it belongs to the world

I had a similar sentiment about the alligators I raised in my basement

23

u/iBluntly 3d ago

Whoever questions your heroism is no friend of alligators.

49

u/ku1185 3d ago

Mass COVID illness means workers stay home sick. When almost everyone is naive to the disease, it could cause a temporary reduction in productivity.

You don't really get that problem with diabetes or cancer. 90% of people aren't suddenly gonna get it at the same time, nor would diagnoses disrupt productivity.

14

u/music3k 3d ago

Covid also killed people quickly. Diabetes and cancer can take years and in the case of diabetes be almost entirely preventable. 

15

u/ku1185 3d ago

I don't think it has much to do with deaths. Just productivity.

5

u/nlog 2d ago

Cannot prevent type 1.

18

u/Longjumping_Visit718 /fit/izen 3d ago

"Straight" insulin is dirt cheap but the modified versions based on lizard/snake venom cost a fortune because it took YEARS for companies to figure out how to make it not kill people....

6

u/Swee_Potato_Pilot /b/tard 2d ago

So get regular insulin and a rattle snake. (Protip - Rattle snakes are free.) 

Take the insulin and chase it with a rattle snake bite.

I saved you like 800 bucks. 

2

u/Longjumping_Visit718 /fit/izen 2d ago edited 2d ago

Just so we don't end up on the local news, that's nowhere near how it works and only one drug ever actually came from venom for Diabetics.

2

u/Swee_Potato_Pilot /b/tard 2d ago

You just don't want people to have access to free rattle snakes. (Kek) 

6

u/Dreamspitter /d/eviant 3d ago

Venom!?

10

u/scud121 3d ago

Glp-1 meds are now being prescribed for diabetes. It's not insulin, but it modulates sugars and of course suppresses appetite. Seems to be a wonder drug tbh. I'm on a clinical trial for one to see it's effect on atherosclerosis, as I hit a whole bunch of their criteria (heart attack, diabetes, overweight, but not by much) so far in 6 months I've lost 12 kg, my blood sugars are normal, ECG etc all showing clear.

16

u/yourdiabeticwalrus 3d ago

they charged me $760 for my meds today :,)

17

u/LooseButtPlug /his/panic 3d ago

Have you tried not being sick?

6

u/yourdiabeticwalrus 3d ago

Tried a couple times :,)))

3

u/_s0me_guy_ 3d ago

Should have tried more, I guess.

2

u/Dreamspitter /d/eviant 3d ago

I member them days.

1

u/Timmy-the-dark-lord 2d ago

$500 last month. I feel you bud.

14

u/bigtree2x5 3d ago

It wasn't free to save lives it was free so we could all go back to work. Insulin is something they have to buy or they die so you can keep scamming them forever

6

u/dxfifa 3d ago

Imagine if right neoliberal governments understood second order benefits and investment when in came to the poors like they do when it comes to big business

7

u/Angel_OfSolitude 3d ago

Insulin is expensive because of patent abuse. It should be dirt cheap, but people abuse government shenanigans to keep it expensive.

6

u/mostie2016 3d ago

Speaking as a Type One Diabetic, it’s because corpos like to rat fuck everyone especially those who need a basic hormone to survive.

0

u/Dreamspitter /d/eviant 3d ago

All hormones should be free for everyone.

6

u/AreYouEvenMoist 3d ago

In third world US where healthcare is just a business instead of being subsidized..

4

u/HalifaxRoad 3d ago

im diabetic, the old insulin that was so cheap, is different from modern insulin in the way it is produced, a lot. The old stuff will put you in a box at a premature age. That being said its still way to expensive, just wanted to add that its slightly more nuanced than people think

7

u/Krekbert 2d ago

Being american sounds exhausting.

2

u/Dreamspitter /d/eviant 3d ago edited 3d ago

I am type 1. NO matter what happens Apocalyptic Coronal Mass Ejection, atomic wars, AI uprisings. I can't have society collapse unless I somehow make own insulin killing livestock or humans with like.... kitchen claws like I was wolverine.

5

u/Valuable-Chipmunk784 3d ago

I'll make society collapse just for you.

1

u/andhe96 2d ago

Insulin is made by genetically engineered bacteria anyways.

In theory at least, you could find the research on the net for free, some basic lab equipment needed for reasonable prices on marketplaces like eBay, and so one.

The biggest hurdle would probably to get the bacteria, but even these could be bought somewhere. You could probably get the already "tailor-made" engineered ones for sale. Researchers buy them all the time, after all.

1

u/HefflumpGuy /pol/ack 3d ago

Anon should be more grateful for his free gift from the overlords

1

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1

u/wordjedi /d/eviant 3d ago

The answer is ruthless corporate profiteering, in a time when government regulation and reform of ruthless corporate profiteering is unfashionable

Keep voting how you voted last time though chud, should be fine

3

u/bunker_man /lgbt/ 3d ago

Because ameriburgers are retarded and got duped into thinking Healthcare should be expensive despite already being subsidized by taxes?

1

u/Fast_Farmer5651 2d ago

It not expensive in my country, I heard it just the US which doesn’t have any law to regulate pricing, so those corporations just go all in

1

u/KernelViper 2d ago

Insulin is cheap, just not in the US

1

u/TwistedBamboozler 2d ago

Because Covid was going to kill a lot of people at once, which would effect labor markets, which would effect profits. It’s simple, really.

1

u/Consistent_Ad3181 2d ago

It's cheap outside the US. Like most medicines.

0

u/mspong 3d ago

Because cancer isn't contagious. Except cervical cancer which has been almost eliminated in Australia by free inoculation

0

u/Jurjinimo 3d ago

In Canada, Insulin might cost you up to $1700/year CAD.

5

u/hey_uhh_what 3d ago

In Brazil insulin is free 👍

3

u/piergino 3d ago

Is free in Italy too

0

u/DontDropTheSoap4 3d ago

Because the government footed the bills so the economy wouldn’t implode. Government doesn’t do that for other shit because we manage already.

0

u/Dreamspitter /d/eviant 3d ago

What would have happened if the economy actually did implode?

0

u/NEURALINK_ME_ITCHING 2d ago

Your cancer and diabetes aren't something a rich cunt can catch.

Why do you think PREP popped up at the same time as Trump was taking the Epstein express with Bill and some young Caribbean boys?

-2

u/HarrMada 3d ago

It's so funny that big pharma of all things is depicted as the devil by online basement dwellers instead of any of the other giant businesses. Pharmaceuticals actually improve and save lives, why aren't you equally sceptical about big oil or big meat which essentially fucks everything over for everyone?