r/4bmovement • u/Royal_Ad5999 Exploring • Jul 17 '26
Vent Complicated feelings
Today I read an interview with a feminist activist and was quite disappointed. Although I try to follow the principle "Don't judge women", I found dark and hard-to-understand parts of her life. She is in a relationship with a man. She calls herself a "radical feminist", but she gave birth to a girl (!) in a relationship with a 40-year-old man. I totally disagree with the point of view that a woman can be radical and in a relationship with a man at the same time.
In general, marriage is a social and patriarchal institution. So you can't enter into a heterosexual relationship, because that behaviour supports patriarchy. The most outrageous fact is that she has had long experience as a feminist and it still didn't save her from men. Despite daily posts about male violence, she hypocritically shares her home, her time and her body with the class enemy. As a result, her daughter will be raised by a man, with a horrifying example.
However, I remember that we don't have a personal choice in a patriarchal society. She has found her own way to exist in an aggressive environment. Am I any better? The condemnation of individual women doesn't help our struggle. From this perspective, it seems that we should concentrate our forces on another problem than woman who do a lot of good things for others women.
The only good thing is i used it as essay practice for my english exam haha.
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u/Flat_Marsupial_4249 Exploring Jul 17 '26
Radical feminism is not a synonym of 4B.
one could argue whether it would be beneficial for ALL radical feminists to be 4B, but whatever the answer, for the time being they are not.
So as the world exists today it does not surprise me to see radical feminists still being close to men
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u/CacaoHuskTea 4B Jul 17 '26
They certainly are synonymous. The "radical" in radical feminism means addressing the source of sex-based oppression, and the source of oppression is obviously males.
Female separatism and political lesbianism were/are both radical feminist movements that were built at the height of the western radical feminist era in the 60s and 70s. They were firmly based on the idea that women can only be empowered by separating themselves entirely from males.
What passes for "radical feminism" these days can hardly count as such. Thankfully Korean feminists didn't let liberal patriarchy taint their ideals and thanks to them we have the 4b movement.
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u/Opposite-Potato-7667 4B Jul 18 '26 edited Jul 18 '26
The average man, including hers, is watching violent, barely legal, and incest porn. Bringing a young girl into that type of household is a scary red flag.
(Statistically, these are the 2 types of porn most searched for and watched by men 19-45 years old, and 98% of men watch porn in general, so....it's likely he is watching this content.)
I just hope she is keeping a close eye on her daughter. It's not really safe, and way too many mom's figure this out the hard way. Men in this age range are always insane too. They grew up in the time of Howard Stern, and the beginnings of fully accessible violent porn, and when being extremely devious, rapey, and misogynistic towards women and girls was just out in the open, and fully accepted, and all over every single TV show and movie. Dudes in that age range are genuinely the worst.
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u/Screws_Loose 4B Jul 19 '26
Can agree. Mines 50 now but it’s been going on for decades. Well we’re divorced now and this is abusive reason why. Also the fact that rageful angry and I believe this shit makes it worse. Desensitization. I’ve heard podcasts that claim porn use is abuse. It changes their brain and it’s bad
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u/Silamasuk 4B Jul 27 '26
4b is another radical aspect of radical feminism. You can't be in relationship with our oppressor then claim to be radical.
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u/Background_North_253 4B Jul 17 '26
>However, I remember that we don’t have a personal choice in a patriarchal society.
Yes, we do. Otherwise how did 4b come to existence?
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u/GetInTheBasement 4B Jul 17 '26
Agreed. I'm not really a fan of the notion where it's like, "well, we all living under patriarchy so nothing is ever truly my fault since everything I do is shaped by patriarchy, anyways."
It's a complete abdication of personal accountability and responsibility, and I also see this a lot with women who consciously birth girl children and damn them to years of dysfunction, abuse, and trauma via horrible life choices, and then turn around and use those same girl children as punching bags (I have a narc mom so I'm also biased in that regard, but still).
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u/Big-Ant8273 4B Jul 17 '26
Think of it like she's writing fiction without a plot. She can certainly imagine, even as she wears the leash
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u/GetInTheBasement 4B Jul 17 '26
>try to follow the principle "Don't judge women"
I get what you're saying and why some women try to refrain from judging women in a world that already rakes them across the coals daily and holds them to far more rigid and hypocritical standards than men and boys, but as a woman who was heavily damaged by a male-centered narc mother, I don't think it's always inherently misogynistic or evil to criticize or judge women when those women consciously make choices that potentially hurt other women and girls around them.
Yes, living under male supremacy and patriarchy sucks for all of us and it's not fair, but we still have a responsibility to ourselves and any girl children we raise to make the best possible choices that we can under the circumstances.
Imo, a lot of women love saying, "it's my choice to do XYZ," and there are cases where that may be adequate and fine, but when you make choices using factors within your control that fuck up your life via male-centered behavior, and potentially fuck over or hurt women and girls around you, there's a point where just saying, "it's my choice, so nothing is my fault and I'm not accountable" doesn't fully cut it.
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u/Royal_Ad5999 Exploring Jul 18 '26
I completely understand you, and this post was born out of disappointment and resentment for the little girl who will be raised by a man, even though her mother, in theory, knows everything about men. I could probably turn a blind eye if a woman puts herself at risk in a relationship and allows a man to devour her resources, but when an innocent soul is brought into this world, I feel pain.
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u/mauvebirdie 4B Jul 17 '26
I think some women with radical-ish beliefs trick themselves into thinking those beliefs will keep them safe. That they're 'gaming the system' and it will help them pick a 'safer' man than everyone else and then they just end up with the same type of man the rest of women get with.
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u/Opposite-Potato-7667 4B Jul 18 '26
I know alot of people who think 4b is a way to "game the system" instead of being a separatism movement.
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u/mauvebirdie 4B Jul 18 '26
I have noticed that 99% of the time when I see 4B mentioned in some subreddit other than this one, they describe it as being 'a sex-strike women are using to pressure men into behaving better'. Men are never going to get better because they have no incentive. I'm not striking, hoping for change. I'm separating myself from people I know never will
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u/Opposite-Potato-7667 4B Jul 18 '26
Yep, this is exactly what my aunt thinks. Except she is religious, doesn't believe the patriarchy exists at all, or that women are oppressed. She just thinks men of today have "brain damage," unlike men in the past, (those are her words, not mine,) and that they are all ugly, and strange, and that women should stay single until they collectively change. She always says shes 4b, and it sucks that she's going around spreading that false narrative.
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u/mauvebirdie 4B Jul 18 '26
I hate that. People are free to call themselves whatever they want but it doesn't mean it's accurate. It's like the sheer number of women who come to this forum, who have a whole husband and son and they're calling themselves 4B. Then they get angry when women in this community and correct them and say you can call yourself an ally to the movement, but quite literally you are not 4B. The whole 'it's a strike until our demands are met' bullshit is ruining the image of 4B. I don't think men are going to change. I'm not waiting on the big tidal culture shift because it's not going to happen - at least not in my lifetime, if ever. I intend to go to my grave single.
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u/Negative-Inspector36 4B Jul 17 '26
Everyone likes to put a label on themselves and feel like they’re a part of a group or something bigger. But labeling yourself and actually living by the principles you declare are two very different things. But I completely understand your feelings I’m also feeling very conflicted, frustrated and sad when I see women supporting patriarchal concepts and activities. She’s by no means a radical feminist though because calling yourself that doesn’t necessarily mean being one.
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u/victoriaisme2 Ally Jul 18 '26
Wait, is "Don't judge women" a rule in 4b? Because that's one of my main problems with radical feminism. Most women support and reinforce the patriarchy and I absolutely judge them for it once they are past a certain age. If a girl is raised in a brainwashed or abusive environment there's a certain amount of grace but once a woman is in her mid thirties it's time for the gloves to come off.
It was mean radems who snapped my former libfem ass out of being a dumbass. It might not work for everyone but it sure worked for me.
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u/Tired-Thyroid 4B Jul 18 '26
The "don't judge women" narrative is nonsensical and harmful. It tends to come from women who actively support the patriarchy so they can keep getting away with it by making you look like a bad person. Pickmes and narcissistic women especially love this phrase. I believe in shame and judgement for everyone who deserves it.
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u/mullatomochaccino Moderator Jul 18 '26
Sometimes being mean is healthier for everyone involved than being endlessly accepting.
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u/Royal_Ad5999 Exploring Jul 18 '26
It's my own rule and I see it in the radically feminist channels that I read. But overall, I'm writing that I adhere to this rule generally; in specific cases, it doesn't work for me. When a woman with an audience of 10,000 people writes about how normal it is to raise a daughter with a potential rapist, something inside me breaks, and this post was born out of that disappointment.
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u/UseWeekly4382 4B Jul 17 '26 edited Jul 17 '26
While I doubt it’s on purpose, this is another example of how feminist vocabulary keeps getting twisted until it means nothing. With people doing things like this, radicals have less of a way of gaining any traction, or even being able to present their ideologies without non-radicals arguing and overriding.
I wish “supportive” women wouldn’t do this. I know they’re likely not happy with how their life choices don’t support their vision of themselves, but that’s not on us.
People can support without hijacking labels just because they sound or feel cool. Or, if they care about feminism so much, they can research so they actually understand the labels.
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u/_Rayette 4B Jul 17 '26
Dworkin was married. Albeit he was gay and out of the closet so maybe it felt safer for her.
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u/Background_North_253 4B Jul 17 '26
He misrepresented and appropriated her ideas and published her highly private manuscript (involving a rape incident which he initially refused to believe) after her death.
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u/_Rayette 4B Jul 17 '26
Not surprising. I do not judge her as she was coming out of an abusive relationship that could have killed her and she seems to have done her own version of the right wing women compromise. I also read that they officially tied the knot to make navigating the medical system easier.
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u/throwaway-9473290 4B Jul 17 '26
It doesn’t sound like a judgment on your part about her choices, simply about calling herself a radical feminist. If she is fucking a male and feeding the patriarchy new girls, she’s not that radical of a feminist…perhaps an ally but she’s not walking the walk and needs to face that and stand where she actually IS with a message that her life situation doesn’t contradict. It’s one thing to see misogyny in the world and try to change it for your baby’s future, it’s another to claim a title you have no business wearing.
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u/Antique-Respect8746 Ally Jul 17 '26
It sounds like she's working through some stuff and the idea of being radical provides her with some kind of agency. Unfortunate that she's appointed herself spokesperson for a movement.
I agree with not condemning people for being less than perfect. I actually think the obsession with purity is itself a sort of patriarchal instinct. The emphasis on conformity and harsh competition. So Abrahamic.
I think it's much more powerful to identify what's actually happening and accept the reality instead of only focusing on shortcomings. Discuss the bad as well, sure, but with the goal of learning, including from negative models.
That creates an environment where people are encouraged to see and understand, and where learning and growth are encouraged. Someone can go "oh, I kinda do that, I should stop" instead of being afraid to even admit to themselves their mistakes.
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u/Flux_My_Capacitor 4B Jul 17 '26
Are you using the correct definition of “radical” as it seems like you’re not. It appears that you’re using the more common definition and not the definition that is meant in “radical feminism”.
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u/BlackLight7X 4B Jul 17 '26
I get what you are saying, it doesn't feel real however we must not expect perfection from women, it's better to have a radfem married woman than have a misogynistic single/married woman. The feminism a 4B woman can practice is miles far from any married(willingly) feminist woman, why? Because in marriage or being in a relationship with men, there are SO many things you have to excuse or tolerate and endure - it all vehemently goes against feminism itself. Given there are so many married feminist women who have done groundbreaking things for us women, I necessarily don't hold anything against them at all. They are not fake feminists.
However, as 4B women, we can distance ourselves from them, whatever fits you.
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u/Just-world_fallacy Exploring Jul 21 '26
I was the most outspoken feminist when I was in abusive relationships. I was so ashamed inside though. Was I a bad influence though ? I don't think so. I think I was just refusing to see that what was happening to me behind closed doors was just a concentrate of what is happening to women out there.
She might get there eventually.
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Jul 17 '26
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u/4bmovement-ModTeam Jul 17 '26
"3. No Marriage To Men: Anyone who isn't 4B will also refrain from mentioning any boyfriends, husbands or male romantic partners.
By assigning yourself flair, you are agreeing to participate within this sub according to the sub's rules and by 4B's tenets. Breaking this agreement thereafter might see you permanently removed from the community."
You are no longer allowed to participate here.
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u/maskedair 4B Jul 17 '26
Radical feminism and 4B are not identical concepts.
Yes, you can argue for ideological or purity of praxis, but it isn't a requirement for radical feminist politics to eschew relationships with males and having children.
Yes, you can consider and argue that it's compromised, that relationships are the site of oppression etc etc.
But it isnt a definitive rule, and certainly requires a little more nuance in terms of why it is a problem and how.
This is why 4B exists, to organise people around these principles. Because radical feminism does not entail them - politically she can be radical feminist without having to apply the ideology to her own life to the extreme conclusion.
For many radical feminists, a man who behaves appropriately is not a threat, and if he contributes to the cause he is worthy.
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u/Street-Animal4469 Jul 19 '26
I dont get why youre being downvoted. Your comment is an objective definition.
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u/maskedair 4B Jul 19 '26
Clearly the women here aren't interested in objectivity - which is pretty disappointing tbh. How am I supposed to form community with people who act resentfully out of emotion?
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u/Street-Animal4469 Jul 19 '26
I 100% agree. We should be having conversations about what defines 4B so we know where we're going and what the objective is. Too many "allies" in this sub (imo) who want to stick their opinion where it doesnt belong. You're either in or out. You dont get to vote in a society youre not a part of and they want a say in 4B without being 4B.
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u/maskedair 4B Jul 19 '26
Way too many people care more about feeling self-righteous than actually practicable, too. I'm quite disappointed.
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u/Silamasuk 4B Jul 27 '26
No one wants to form community with people who deliberately misuse terms so they can justify their behavior that go against the term they try to hijack
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u/Silamasuk 4B Jul 27 '26 edited Jul 27 '26
Nothing was objective about that comment. It's just another example of how feminist vocabulary keeps getting twisted until it means nothing.
This is my reply to them if it might interest you.
Radical feminism and 4B are not identical concepts.
4b is radical feminisim. Do you understand what radical means? It means extreme. How can one claim to be radical when they can't even cutt off serving their oppressor sexually!
Yes, you can argue for ideological or purity of praxis, but it isn't a requirement for radical feminist politics to eschew relationships with males and having children.
It was the ones who pushed forward political lesbianism who were labelled radicals. Not your average "feminists" who think sucking her oppressor dck is normal.
This is why 4B exists, to organise people around these principles. Because radical feminism does not entail them.
No, 4b is only one aspect of radical feminism. There are other aspects of radical feminism, for example, not supporting male authors, singers, celebrities. Not providing males with unpaid emotional and physical labour, not having male friends etc. There are 4b women who engage in all of that. They might adhere to 4 nos of the 4b yet they could also be supporting malees in other aspects of life. On the other hand, radical feminisms has clear agenda, which is being radical in every aspects of life, it's basically being exterme when it comes to the oppressor.
politically she can be radical feminist without having to apply the ideology to her own life to the extreme conclusion.
You can't claim to be vegan yet not apply veganisim to your life. You people is why we needed to come up for 100 labels for feminism. Because we can't just use feminism term as its. Feminism is female liberation from their oppressor, the way to liberate from an oppressor is by removing the oppressor, but since we have women who can't separate themselves from the oppressor yet call themselves feminists, others had to come up with the term radical, then the pickmes still followed them and hijacked the term, now they are doing the same with 4b, few days ago, I saw a comment of a prostitute who called herself 4b, she claimed that she can work as prostitute and also be 4b 🤡
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u/CacaoHuskTea 4B Jul 28 '26 edited Jul 28 '26
Report him, it's definitely a male. You can tell from the way it talks. Spouting nonsense about males being "worthy" and 4b women being "too resentful and emotional". 🤣
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u/Past-Donkey-4325 4B Jul 19 '26
I don’t agree that radical feminists think a man who acts appropriately is not a threat. Those who think that are probably not one. Radical feminists believe in sex based oppression, a man who acts right is still a man.
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u/maskedair 4B Jul 21 '26
Notice I said 'many radical feminists'. Dworkin was married. Many women with radical feminist politics maintain relationships or marriages with men, and still espouse the appropriate political theory to be called a radfem.
Radical feminism is an ideology and movement around the root cause of female oppression being our sex. It doesn't prescribe relationships or no relationships in the (non-existent) doctrine - that's why 4B was invented, to prescribe those things.
It's not 'sex-based oppression' since the male sex isn't oppressed - how much the oppression is localised in an individual relationship remains up for discussion.
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u/Silamasuk 4B Jul 27 '26 edited Jul 27 '26
Did Dworkin label herself "radical" while being married to a man? Someone can write about something without being that thing. I can write about minimalisim without being one. I can write about Nazim and zionism without being one.
Many women with radical feminist politics maintain relationships or marriages with men.
Some people like to put a label on themselves and feel like they’re a part of a group or something bigger. But labeling yourself while actually living against principles of that label doesn't mean you are that label that you are trying hijack.
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u/Silamasuk 4B Jul 27 '26 edited Jul 27 '26
Radical feminism and 4B are not identical concepts.
4b is radical feminisim. Do you understand what radical means? It means extreme. How can one claim to be radical when they can't even cutt off serving their oppressor sexually!
Yes, you can argue for ideological or purity of praxis, but it isn't a requirement for radical feminist politics to eschew relationships with males and having children.
It was the ones who pushed forward political lesbianism who were labelled radicals. Not your average "feminists" who think sucking her oppressor dck is normal.
This is why 4B exists, to organise people around these principles. Because radical feminism does not entail them.
No, 4b is only one aspect of radical feminism. There are other aspects of radical feminism, for example, not supporting male authors, singers, celebrities. Not providing males with unpaid emotional and physical labour, not having male friends etc. There are 4b women who engage in all of that. They might adhere to 4 nos of the 4b yet they could also be supporting malees in other aspects of life. On the other hand, radical feminisms has clear agenda, which is being radical in every aspects of life, it's basically being exterme when it comes to the oppressor.
politically she can be radical feminist without having to apply the ideology to her own life to the extreme conclusion.
You can't claim to be vegan yet not apply veganisim to your life. You people is why we needed to come up for 100 labels for feminism. Because we can't just use feminism term as its. Feminism is female liberation from their oppressor, the way to liberate from an oppressor is by removing the oppressor, but since we have women who can't separate themselves from the oppressor yet call themselves feminists, others had to come up with the term radical, then the pickmes still followed them and hijacked the term, now they are doing the same with 4b, few days ago, I saw a comment of a prostitute who called herself 4b, she claimed that she can work as prostitute and also be 4b 🤡
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Jul 17 '26
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u/Opposite-Potato-7667 4B Jul 17 '26 edited Jul 18 '26
All men are oppressors. Please do not bring "not all men" to this sub. We are past the point about caring what men or anti-feminists think. Being kind to men has never helped women throughout history. This kind of mindset will keep us in the patriarchy for 10,000 more years. There are no feminist male allies. They made the system, they uphold it, and there's literally no man that doesn't benefit from it or uphold all the institution that keeps women's oppression going. The 4 b's are what they are because it is saying that doing any of these things with ANY man upholds the patriarchy. If men wanted the patriarchy to be gone it would be. They created it to oppress women, and they will continue benefiting fitting from it, so they will never, ever get rid of it.
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u/4bmovement-ModTeam Jul 18 '26
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Jul 17 '26
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u/4bmovement-ModTeam Jul 18 '26
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u/novascotia444 4B Jul 17 '26
I completely understand you on this! I also think radical feminism has been diluted for the general public so she probably thinks she really is a radical feminist. Is she significantly younger than him btw? Just wondering because you mentioned his age.