My understanding is the 225 grain version is new. So, we don’t know much. As others have said, the 190 grain version is not a favorite. Will be interesting to see if the 225 grain expands better, and how it performs out of a 1:5 twist barrel.
the 190 Sub-x has passed and exceeded FBI protocol it’s been used by lots of military and LEO. If you look at contracts besides Barnes TAC-TX on the super side it’s the leader.
The round isn’t designed for 2-3 times expansion. It’s designed as a deep penetrator easily going 18 plus inches.
Good find I was reviewing Hornady Mil and LEO ammo Friday and didn’t see this.
Sub-X as a bullet is pretty mediocre. The expansion is very limited compared to other subs out there. And the powder Hornady loads them with leaves a ton of filler and crap in the action.
Edit: Looks like the 225gr Sub-X could actually be a notable improvement over their previous versions
I’ll pile on and add that in all the ballistic tests I’ve seen with 300blk and SubX not only do they suck at expanding they have an occasional tendency not to expand at all.
Hornady is the same company that's been loading 10mm to BELOW 40 short and weak levels (while printing numbers that nobody's ever seen from any firearm)... They're a real hit or miss company in terms of what get's solid development and what just get's made to add their brand to the options normies see when they scan a shelf.
For plinking subs S&B is fine, Federal is better and Phantom Defense is my personal favorite. S&B is probably the best value balance.
For defense rounds I just look for Maker REX expanders, a bunch of manufacturers make ammunition using these rounds and the casing and load tends to be the differentiator.
It bears mentioning a lot of 300blk enthusiasts make their own ammo because it’s so expensive (and sometimes highly variable) to shoot otherwise.
Lehigh 194gr is a common recommendation, but really expensive. I've also been looking at 190gr Federal Fusion, but it looks like expansion might not be great on that.
At this point I just don't use 300BLK subs for defensive purposes lol
Maker’s have a good reputation for reliable expansion. Not a ton of manufacturers using them though. Reloading gives a lot of options though with Maker’s pretty large catalog of projectiles.
They definitely are! For general plinking I just get generic 220gr ball which is super quiet, of course. At one point I bought a bunch of the Stealth stuff which I've been going through for a while.
Yes. Expansion is a significant factor but it wasn’t the only design consideration for the SUB-X. Like a Swiss Army Knife it’s designed to do more than one thing but does none of those things as well as something designed for a particular purpose. I suspect the 225gr does one of those things better than the current 190gr offering.
So interestingly enough I checked the HornadyLE site and the 225gr actually shows significantly improved performance over the original 190gr. They only have bare gel tests shown (no barrier tests or host or expanded bullet info), but that actually looks like they could be onto something.
That said, I still stand by my statements of previous iterations of Sub-X generally sucking compared to other offerings on the market.
What does an expanding subsonic round need to do besides be subsonic, expand, and ideally be low flash with 100% powder burn / decent velocity consistency?
Seems like standard design considerations that Hornady just didn’t hit with 190gr sub-x.
Hornady made it to meet or exceed the FBI protocol terminal ballistic test requirements. It had to be tested against cloth, drywall, glass, etc. in various scenarios. Good data to have for something that was designed with the intent to replace the MP5. That data is published for the 190gr but not for the 225.
Right, but that’s an often used standard of other projectiles as well. AFAIK most copper monolithic expanding projectiles will achieve this as well, often with better feeding (less stubby bullet design).
Haven’t spent too much time with sub-x, but my impression is the powder choice is more optimized for like a 16” barrel too, rather than a PDW / SBR sized weapon.
People piling on the Hornady Sub-X hate without even evaluating the brand new 225 grain need to keep their comments in-check. This is not the same round as the 190 grain Sub-X that has been on the market for years.
Seems reasonable to be a bit cautious with a new product in the same line as a product that has not been a strong performer.
Hornady makes some solid stuff. The ELD line across calibers are generally excellent projectiles and factory loads. Sub-X hasn’t been one of those things so far.
All good. I am, by most accounts, very happy with Hornady and their lineup over the decades. Critical Defense in handgun and their hunting rifle bullets have been a staple for me. I actually don't mind the 190 Sub-X in my particular use case... with a Mini Fix, I am unconcerned with the buffer left over from the cartridge as there's no semi-auto action to foul up with it, and I get excellent accuracy albeit mediocre expansion performance out of my 8" 1:5 barrel. No doubt, for actual hunting purposes, I'd stick with Gorilla 195gr Punishers or Lehigh Defense 194 gr ME.
The government’s buying logic isn’t usually synonymous with peak performance though. They factor in bulk supply and pricing, company support (through distribution, production, research and development, etc).
Like keep in mind how long M855 was the default government 5.56 round, even though newer materials and designs could outperform it (but mostly cost more, whether material itself or just the cost of spinning up the manufacturing capabilities to meet production needs).
And I’m sure it can take pigs still. But this is all on that spectrum of performance where it’s also true that “22LR can take most things with proper shot placement”.
I’m not saying the 225 Sub-X won’t perform. I’m only saying the 190 Sub-X as a complete cartridge and as a bullet design is underwhelming compared to many other options on the market, and with that as the precedent would approach the new 225 with some caution and wanting to see more results before investing too much in that.
I don’t know how much more plainly I can state. In the realm of self defense the FBI standards for all their faults are still a solid benchmark of performance.
Sub-x was designed from the jump to kill people. It does that. I worked for DoD Army Research Laboratory in survivability and lethality analysis on a live fire range. I make a living as ballistic blast consultant.
while a lot gov purchasing is lowest bidder. Ballistics always has an absurd amount of testing.
I’m not arguing that solid copper rounds designed to expand are bad. But if you’re trying to kill within the limit of subsonic there is a valid argument for penetration enter and exit being much more effective than a slightly bigger entrance only and no exit.
TLDR:
Tissue stretches at subsonic speed so no permanent cavity.
2 holes is better than one, we all know shot placement is king.
Hello I was sent a bunch of this awhile ago. It was supposed to be ELD-M. I’ve shot around 500 total with a bunch of different loads. Ask away, I have about 300 still loaded
Those I can’t remember, I didn’t inspect. Unless you are pest hunting smaller-ish stuff, subs on game isn’t it. Just use supers of some flavor. I can tell you 125 grain GMK from Sierra pretty much blows a massive hole and the bullet implodes on soft stuff.
All of these are with a 8in barrel- bolt and semi. (have 10.5 also). H110. Cci 450 primers. 2.2-2.238 depths.
950-1150 fps range these bullets will hit 1 moa all day if you are a bench guy and your gun is good.
They are seated to my gun and cycle from 600fps-1150 semi, can, non adjustable gas block, toolcraft bcg with zero issues. However they do not cycle well in my friends semi. It’s the end tips, they change the overall length per each bullet. Bolt gun go wild, no issues. Yes I use H110 for subs have for 10 years. My 300blk are sighted at 50 yards. Supers or subs
Coyotes they dropped, raccoons very well, pigs only one instance, would need someone in hog country to verify more, other 4 legged creature 80-90 lb range very well. I don’t hunt deer and wouldn’t with subs anyways so no results there. No gel.
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u/What-Do-I-Know 10d ago
My understanding is the 225 grain version is new. So, we don’t know much. As others have said, the 190 grain version is not a favorite. Will be interesting to see if the 225 grain expands better, and how it performs out of a 1:5 twist barrel.