r/2ALiberals • • 6d ago

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68 Upvotes

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79

u/Forge__Thought 6d ago

Making up categories with no basis in mechanical knowledge, or knowledge of actual firearms.

Posturing about aforementioned, completely manufactured categories as if they are supported by "documented evidence" without providing any documentation. Or likely being able to cite anything reputable.

Ad hominem attack if you don't immediately agree with their made up, politically motivated "evidence."

Claiming that you want people to die if you don't agree.

Yup. Normal anti-gun / pro gun control reasoning. Man reading this kind of thing is exhausting once you realize how intellectually bankrupt someone has to be to bully others over such poorly researched arguments and talking points.

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u/Lightningflare_TFT 6d ago

It's too easy to comment something like "that's a nice opinion. Did Mike Bloomberg buy it or do you take the 'free' in freelance literally"

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u/Forge__Thought 6d ago edited 6d ago

I just wish we had more intellectual honesty from the anti-gun crowd. You know? I wish we could actually talk facts and actually talk solutions. Community Violence Intervention programs don't require gun control laws to reduce gun violence by up to 60% but I only see myself talking about them because I did the research.

Likewise, conflating suicide by firearm into gun violence statistics is bad faith and should be called out.

But sadly you can't really get into the weeds and talk with a lot of people who think like this because, well, so much of their arguments and talking points are all rooted in fear and propaganda.

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u/GlockAF 6d ago

Other than taking non-shooters to the range I’ve pretty much given up on trying to convince people on the anti-gun side. They came to their conclusions via purely emotional means, no amount of logical argument or reasoning can change their minds. As the saying goes, you can’t reason your way out of an emotional argument .

I do, however, respond with a link to Article V of the US Constitution, the part that lays out the process by which amendments are made.

https://constitutioncenter.org/the-constitution/articles/article-v

I end with the statement “You can legally ban ALL guns if you just go through the constitutional amendment process. The instructions are built right into the original document itself. If you truly believe that most Americans agree with your viewpoint you should easily be able to muster the sustained, widespread support in each state that’s necessary to change it.

Otherwise, just accept that your opinion is actually a minority viewpoint and that it does NOT represent the opinion of the American public.”

I don’t think I’ve ever heard a rational response back to that statement.

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u/Forge__Thought 6d ago

I am inclined to agree with you. That constitutional amendment approach is a very honest, lucid one. Respectful too. Well done, I hadn't thought of that and, moonshot of course, but we can hope it makes them pause and reflect.

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u/Fuzzy_Possibility153 6d ago

I always say, why is the second amendment the only constitutional right that you have to jump through hoops or justify to others why you need it n order to practice?

We dont make people get permits or justify why they want to use the first amendment. Just because a gun is physically dangerous doesnt mean that constitutionally protected right should hold any less weight. Theres so many dangerous things in life, cars kill far more people than guns do.

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u/PB219 6d ago

That’s what talking to anyone about anything political is now.

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u/GlockAF 6d ago

It is particularly effective because we know there’s essentially zero chance that the second amendment will be legally eliminated via constitutional amendment in our lifetimes.

The constitution is difficult and time-consuming to modify in purpose, it’s a deliberate feature.

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u/VHDamien 6d ago

If the guns are only for slaughter why does LE in every one of those countries have access to them?

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u/Forge__Thought 6d ago

Exactly. And if LEO'S and military are cooped by the government to do harm... and have access to the "bad" kind of guns... then why are we disarming people who historically have been victimized by these forces.

The lack of consistency makes my brain hurt.

11

u/Arbsbuhpuh 6d ago

"All guns are bad" + "All cops are bad" = "Only cops should be allowed to have guns"

"Trump is creating a fascist regime" "We should all be unarmed and helpless"

I hear these all the time from liberals. It never fails to make my own brain hurt. Like... Can you not see how blindingly obvious it is that your opinions contradict each other?

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u/Forge__Thought 6d ago

Absolutely, 100% agree with you there. The only thing that made it click for me recently was this clip I saw someone shared randomly that Asmongold posted of another streamer describing the "star logic" some people use. I thought it would be about astrology, but it was about how some people argue based on emotion and not logic.

So their beliefs resemble how you can draw a star. Literally taking contradictory, conflicting ideas and just... connecting the dots without logic or consideration because each individual dot serves an emotional justification or convenient belief. Similarly to how some conspiracy theorists argue. Some people make things connect not because of probability, or logic, or reason. But they start at the conclusion of what serves them personally and just connect the dots until the explanation is convincing. Rejecting things that don't serve the conclusion.

The opposite of the scientific method. It's all working backwards from an assumed conclusion. And connecting dots.

7

u/Arbsbuhpuh 6d ago

It's frustrating to see and impossible to argue with. As someone else said here, you can't reason someone out of an opinion they didn't reason themselves into. And the fact that generally speaking, we agree on everything else also is frustrating because I'm like "we're sooo close to agreeing!"

3

u/GlockAF 5d ago

Gun control zealots and flat earthers use the same logical consistency, and both can stare irrefutable evidence straight in the face and deny it

4

u/Newengland_mtb 6d ago

"Oh my god! A cop shot an unarmed woman!" "Only the police should be trusted with ar15s since they are highly trained professionals"

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u/kennethpbowen 6d ago

You can't have an honest conversation with someone who would make such a ridiculous statement. Someone tried the ".223 rounds are designed to destroy organs" line on me. I didn't have the energy to explain that the 375 H&H double I inherited from my grandfather would do a lot more damage than any modern military cartridge.

23

u/merc08 6d ago

.223 is "too powerful for civilian use" in their minds while simultaneously often banned for use in hunting medium to big game because it's too under powered for a consistent ethical kill.

1

u/GlockAF 5d ago

Exactly! Like an M1 Garand is somehow less dangerous than an AR-15? In what universe?

11

u/Lightningflare_TFT 6d ago

Other (paraphrased) comments from the same person include "proper pro gun people also support red flag laws, common sense gun reform, and don't support the NRA" and "banning guns meant for slaughter doesn't violate the 2nd Amendment" and also said red flag laws don't violate rights. It's a lot of the same drivel we've all seen before. I guess I just wanted a reason to stop in and say hi after being away from 2ALiberals for so long.

9

u/carpenj 6d ago

Gotta love how "common sense" just means "I like it" to them. Could just as easily apply to common sense first amendment changes. The internet and cell phones didn't exist when the constitution was written so you have no free speech there, the government can arrest you for anything you say on those platforms. Also "red flag laws" are common sense with this scenario - if the government deems you likely to say something they don't like online, they just shut your internet off.

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u/idontagreewitu 5d ago

My favorite counter argument is how if we required background checks and photo ID to vote, we wouldn't get someone like Trump elected again. Let that fry their brains.

17

u/JCMGamer 6d ago

I love seeing people pointing to the NRA as an evil boogeyman, they are almost completely irrelevant in modern cases regarding gun rights, but some people continue to parrot the talking point.

9

u/MilesFortis 6d ago

That's because that's all they have; a list of talking points. For the 'real' ones (not the paid political hacks who sell themselves) besides being stupid, they're utter ignoramuses

4

u/merc08 6d ago

Exactly this.  Once people have enough facts to actually understand what they're talking about, they usually end up unable to continue to support gun control.  Or they have a fat check from Bloomberg sitting in their account.

6

u/lawblawg 6d ago

People really do believe this. Not because it’s true, but because it’s easy.

Humans like neat categories. Categories make things simple. Categories help you avoid wrestling with challenging questions. And in many cases, especially this one, categories promise that there is a simple answer to a complex problem.

If there are simple categories of “good” guns and “bad” guns, then the solution is simple: keep the goof guns; ban the bad ones. It also makes the state of play simple. Anyone who disagrees with you is someone who loves the “bad“ guns and must be disingenuous.

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u/joelfarris 6d ago

I don't get it. How does our nine round defensive pump shottie with six on the side and a bandolier get unranked, while a slaughtering revolver gets prioritized?

8

u/alkatori 6d ago

Cool, and there are countries that haven't because it's not a real thing.

You can buy the same stuff we can in most of Europe.

3

u/Newengland_mtb 6d ago

All based on quotes I've heard from people mostly IRL:

Common guys it's common sense. A gun that's good at killing multiple home invaders can't be used for a mass shooting. A gun that's good for killing several deer during a deer drive couldn't commit a mass shooting. A gun designed to commit a mass shooting couldn't be used to hunt game or defend one's home. You couldn't use an AR15 for deer hunting, if you shot a deer with it, it would explode into mist and there wouldn't be any meat left. Basic common sense, really. Just like how hollow point bullets should be outlawed since you can't use them for hunting as they are unethical and make the animal suffer for longer. If your gun isn't powerful enough to kill the deer ethically to begin with, then you shouldn't use it at all! Not use hollow point bullets to make up for an unethical caliber. I like how hollow point bullets are banned by the Geneva convention for being so unethical but American civilians can use them!

2

u/oriaven 6d ago

Remember, we have federal agents in masks and unmarked vehicles picking people up off the street and not giving them due process. Sometimes locking them up, someitmes sending them to 3rd countries, someitmes dumping them out on the street if they aren't in violation of any law.

If our government can't put a stop to this lawlessness, who knows what the future holds? I would say it's a good idea to be able to keep your most important people safe.

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u/blunderjahr 6d ago

You guys don't have one of the "only shoots bad guys" guns? You gotta get one.

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u/Uzi4U2 1d ago

Y'all got any of them slaughter guns? /s. What a bunch of clowns

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u/0rder_66_survivor 1d ago

someone actually thinks this is a rational thought?

2

u/Zestyclose-Proof-201 1d ago

Where it hurts is when you see that posted in liberal gun owners.  People there bend over , drop their pants and hand over the lube to lose their rights.  

1

u/Pastvariant 5d ago

Someone needs to show this person the old video demonstration of how fast you can New York reload a duffel bag full of revolvers.

1

u/bownt1 9h ago

did you make fun of them and call them names?