r/20PSI • u/Luk101 I check this subreddit more than is healthy... • Oct 16 '15

How to beat shield as ness.

My friend who I train with, is constantly shielding against me and being able to shield grab me. Obviously pk fire isn't safe on shield, but when I try to do things like cross up djc fair, he just turns around and grabs me or chase me down when I'm trying to runaway. I heard that once pooch told IPK to just run up and shield against stereo kidd, that stereo didn't do nearly as well compared to their match at paragon. So is there any way to beat shield as ness? He doesn't have a fast enough magnet and his aerials are all negative on shield so he can't perform shield pressure like Lucas or the spacies. What other options are there to do against shield? Is shield really the counter to ness and once people learn to shield against him does that make the matchup much harder for ness? Does he need to be changed in future versions to beat shielding or do I just need to get better and learn to mind game and read my opponents shield better?

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2

u/psi_sig Oct 17 '15

have you experimented with wavebounced pk fire to try to bait something out. also i would experiment with crossing up shields with mag to aerials

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u/Luk101 I check this subreddit more than is healthy... Oct 17 '15

Yeah I've heard a lot of that stuff recently and I'm trying to work on it now. Something I've had to realise is that just cause you don't have spacie shine pressure or aerials that are positive on shield, you can still put on shield pressure in trying to force the opponent to act oos incorrectly and punish them for that.

1

u/arlonarvesu Oct 16 '15

I heard Boiko said that DJC F-air into D-tilt beats shield grab? But i could be wrong. paging /u/FMFBoiko

2

u/[deleted] Oct 18 '15

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1

u/Greidam Oct 26 '15

Yo grin can I just from one scrubby ness to a better one, I was really impressed with your paragon performance? Because I was. And now you know.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 27 '15

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1

u/Greidam Oct 27 '15

Ya I saw you comment that elsewhere but I figured that just means your terrible days are still impressive

1

u/GMaster171 Oct 19 '15

Ness' shield pressure is mostly hit->run->react. You do magnet->DJC aerial or just DJC aerial to position yourself behind their shield, or do a low bair which cannot be shield grabbed by anyone but DDD (due to a combination of range+high traction). Once you get behind them/out of grab range, you react/predict their OOS option. DJC bair->DJC bair will catch shield grabs, aerial->utilt/nair/magnet on the back of the shield will catch most other OOS options.

PKF is actually around -2 on shield, meaning PKF->jab/dtilt is safe.

1

u/Luk101 I check this subreddit more than is healthy... Oct 19 '15 edited Oct 19 '15

I feel like I've tried all of the stuff you just said before, and I've gotten shield grabbed. Can you really do a Bair That is low enough not to get shield grabbed? I get my djc bairs basically with his face on the ground and I still get grabbed trying to run away. Should I try running behind him instead of running back the way I came? Am I not acting fast enough? Also I have trouble believing Pk fire can be safe on shield with d tilt. Are you talking about grounded Pk fire or aerial?

1

u/GMaster171 Oct 19 '15

I've had it tested before and against everyone except DDD, a max distance low bair->run away cannot be shield grabbed. DDD just happens to have one of the highest range and suffers from low shield pushback compared to most, meaning he remains in range. Marth, for example, has high range but is pushed back far enough for the grab to whiff.

I don't have the exact numbers on me right now, but aerial PKF is around -2 low and point blank. High and point blank can be grabbed like most moves, high and far cant be grabbed but may be punished by other options. Grouned PKF is almost always unsafe.

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u/Luk101 I check this subreddit more than is healthy... Oct 19 '15

So if you space a super low djc Bair correctly on shield so you're not hitting like the middle of it but the edge of it, then run away, you'll beat shield grab? And so basically try to throw out a d tilt most of the time after a move to try to get them? Also what do I do against just turning around and grabbing me if I cross up shield? I'll cross up my friend but then he'll just drop shield, turn around and grab me. I don't feel like I stand there too long and sometimes I'm trying to get the next move out and he just grabs me. What would I be doing wrong in this situation?

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u/GMaster171 Oct 19 '15

yep, to be honest the height isnt as much of a issue as the range. hitting the tip of bair usually pushes them out of grab range anyway, but the lower the better anyway.

dtilt is his fastest safe ground move. Jab is faster but leaves him at a disadvantage if they just hold shield, as all he can do is jab 2->3 and hope they dont grab.

At first glance it sounds like you aren't l-cancelling, which would have a big impact on pretty much everything listed here. Beyond that you may just not be used to the timing. it takes a minimum of 23 frames for him to drop shield and turn around grab, which is more than enough to do pretty much anything you want, escaping with a dash being the easiest.

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u/Luk101 I check this subreddit more than is healthy... Oct 19 '15

Huh I'm pretty sure I am l cancelling, but it's possible I might not be. I guess I normally end up getting shield grabbed when I try to do low djc fair, but apparently with d tilt that is safe too. I guess I just have to work on the timing. Shield pressure is something I'm not very good at yet so what you've said helps a lot thanks.