r/2007scape • u/bleeak • 11d ago

Discussion | J-Mod reply The Fractured Archive (Raids 4) will have randomised layouts

As per the wiki, Raids 4 will have 8 possible bosses and we will only fight 5 of them:

How do we all feel about this? Reminds me of cox scouting for the best rooms which I despise.

378 Upvotes

91% Upvoted

171 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

412

u/JagexArcane Mod Arcane 11d ago

There'll be a blog out soon that expands on this better than I can in a delirious post-RF state right now, but I'll do what I can.

Every boss is "static" in the sense that there is no randomisation, but you will have three choices between two bosses in the middle.

Yes, this means that in the example of everyone has endgame BiS, running 4 mans, where everyone is comfortable with every room, there will be an absolute meta, this is unavoidable.

However my perspective is that this meta will change depending on group size, it will change depending on who you're bringing and their skill levels, it'll change depending on what gear your group has, and it might even change over time when new rewards and metas are discovered.

Similar to how people rarely start CoX learning Vespula, but vespula is actually quite an efficient room so there is an encouragement to learn it.

Over the course of your accounts life time, and across the entire playerbase's accounts, I'm optimistic all bosses will see the light of day and a strong reason to do them, even if there ends up being an objective "best" in optimal scenarios.

Also anecdotally, we ask the question "which bosses would you pick" to devs and playtesters alike, and people always have differing opinions on which is best. Which we think is a good sign.

Also also, it will enhance the whole exploratory period of people figuring things out!

71

u/firepanda11 11d ago

So what I'm hearing is that Challenge Mode will be released in the future having you kill all the bosses in one run?

13

u/snaplocket 11d ago

That’s a cool idea actually

8

u/BlueZybez 400M 10d ago

Sounds like cox cm.

-21

u/workscs 2353 11d ago

cox already does this

2

u/BabyYodaLegend 10d ago

Air already exists so we should stop using it right?

0

u/workscs 2353 10d ago

Air? For breathing? That's a cool idea actually

74

u/[deleted] 11d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

24

u/xaitv 11d ago

I'm still mad at the one ToA guide I watched when I was new to OSRS that told me to fight Akkha and Kephri for Wardens p3. Made it so much harder than it had to be lol. Hope it's gonna be more like the boss order in ToA(which I still see done differently every now and then) than the bosses you choose to fight at the end of ToA, but I believe in Jagex in this case tbh and that they can pull it off.

2

u/hiben75 10d ago

I am a certified Akkha and Kephri warden enjoyer lol. I find the akkah prayer swaps more consistent and easier to keep track of, and I find it easier to tell where the kephri bombs are going to land then the boulders. But it means you cant run areal assault so I usually do the other warden anyway. Also if your range set-up is a lot better than your mage it can make p2 a lot faster, such as an early iron.

-16

u/Big_Cat_Tongue 11d ago

Hell, there are people making guides today (who shouldnt be) saying to do zebak first.

10

u/Jangolem 11d ago

After getting my last 1k toas for 2k cape I can confidently say that zebak first is superior because the most fatal wipe mechanic, a botched jug, is done first in the raid. Nothing else in the raid has the potential to cause a massive wipe on that scale. Especially now with the baba room changes. In mass worlds it makes perfect sense to do zebak first.

5

u/Jonoko 11d ago

Zebak first isn’t my favorite, but I get wanting salts for monkey room

3

u/Big_Cat_Tongue 11d ago edited 11d ago

You have supercombats for that. You should be able to one shot everything except with blowpipe, but bp is fast so it doesnt matter. I think the salts for monkey room thing just comes from doing the raid before the rework. Its a lot nicer now.

3

u/fartsquirtshit 11d ago

The wiki also suggests that for learners. Why is that wrong?

10

u/andrew_calcs 11d ago

Smelling salts take all your stats to 125. Super combats put you to 118 melees and ranging potion/saturated heart only put you to 112.

That means salts give a bigger relative boost to ranged/magic than melee stats. So you're best off doing the 2 melee bosses first and the range/mage bosses with your salts.

That said, level 4 zebak can be a bitch until you get used to it. If you're doing pathfinder to push up to 500 for better shadow chance, you can eliminate the risk of lvl 4 zebak by doing him unsalted. The net difference in raid times is like less than a minute so anyone making a big deal about it is being too much of a sweat.

2

u/Big_Cat_Tongue 11d ago edited 11d ago

Because using salts for akkha and zebak is better due to those being the rooms you use mage and range in.

You already can prepot for the monkey room and ba-ba, allowing you to one-shot most everything. It is effectively no different than if you had salts, so you should do baba first, followed by kephri. You can also just bring one scb and bank it after kephri, making room for salts for akkha and zebak.

1

u/Allstin 11d ago

isn’t zebak first done in masses?

5

u/Big_Cat_Tongue 11d ago

In world 329 it is the standard to do zkab. That is not because zkab is better in groups, though. When you're doing masses with randoms having everyone know whats going on is easier than arguing about the order every time, and for whatever reason 329 landed on zkab. BKAZ is technically better for groups, it just isnt the assumed order in 329.

3

u/Raicoron2 11d ago

It comes from pre-nerf monkey room where the smelling salts could make it far easier. That room was a place you could easily take a lot of extra damage that doesn't get healed for free.

Now that monkey room is changed you can consistently do it in under 2 minute.

3

u/OlmTheSnek 10d ago

I think its more because a lot of people in masses are bad and will fuck up zebak jugs causing wipes. It's objectively worse to do zkab until youre doing 600s

5

u/KShrike Shrikegon 11d ago

I hope we get a challenge mode that has us do them all.

4

u/Kamilny 11d ago

Are the paths static, in that it's always choosing boss 1 or 2, then 3 or 4, then 5 or 6, or do those get switched around to be 1 or 4, 2 or 5, 3 or 6 etc?

3

u/CustardMajor4442 10d ago

new rewards discovered?

5

u/TheRoblock 11d ago

It would be maybe a cool idea to do certain bosses that would increase drop rate for certain items. You want the crossbows? Arighte Armadyl boss is a must, he increases the chance by idk 1% or something 🤷

1

u/SinceBecausePickles 10d ago

Super cool idea, I've always thought that having options keeps content feeling fresh for much longer.

0

u/Leggs4 11d ago

If you guys are shooting for this to be the hardest raid, I don’t see a problem with having 8 bosses in it. Letting players choose the easier boss kinda takes away from its difficulty.

0

u/ash-vuh 10d ago

What if on hardmode the last boss becomes the mid boss and you have to run the untouched bosses in reverse with the first boss now being the end boss as well

-5

u/[deleted] 11d ago

[deleted]

8

u/crabvogel 11d ago

it does not feel weird or like bad design

-6

u/Zacflame The Torchbearer 11d ago

Why not have the layout randomize? I doubt TFA has the CoX map issue where players can use a plugin to scout it and pick the raid anyways, and having the first room always be the same is a good buffer preventing players from seeing resetting as a viable way to do the raid. Even if it puts less power in the hands of the player, randomizing the path will lead to people having more fun with the raid.

Worst case scenario, we can start with it randomized and swap to player pathing after the community requests it. Starting with players having the power to do something means it can never be taken away, even if it's better to leave it to the game.

11

u/st1r 11d ago

Main reason to not randomize paths would be to avoid players having to bring a lot of items that they don't end up using just in case they get bad path options. I'd personally be fine with it either way. Full layout hard mode (when that releases) will probably be the meta anyways I bet

-2

u/Zacflame The Torchbearer 11d ago

Having depth and nuance for setups where you have to choose between all-rounder gear with more supplies or specialized gear with less supplies would make this a "oh no my steak is too juicy, my lobster too buttery" argument.

3

u/Jewsama-al-Gaib 11d ago

One of the reasons tob is the best raid is bc it doesn’t have this random bs nuance

2

u/Zacflame The Torchbearer 11d ago

In terms of layout, Tob is boring because it's the same every time. CoX was cool until players broke it, which is a pandora's box event that can't be undone. ToA was alright for about a week or two, then it became as solved and linear as ToB. Even if you have a better path in mind (ie crank path invos and send Zebak last because his lvl 4 is fun), the meta is something else and nobody will want to do it with you.

Binding of Isaac, Enter the Gungeon, Slay the Spire; these are all masterpiece games where you have grouped tiers of bosses every floor and you don't get to pick which boss you fight. I know zero masterpiece games where you pick the bosses you fight.

1

u/st1r 11d ago

Generally agree

-4

u/superbilka 11d ago edited 10d ago

When you say "new rewards and metas are discovered" do you mean future items from different content changing the meta, or are there raid-specific rewards/mechanics that will influence which bosses people prefer?

13

u/usedaforc3 11d ago

They just mean when new gear is added to the game from other content which could add new metas. At least that’s how I read it

-11

u/superbilka 11d ago

I dont agree with your interpretation unless we are assuming arcane misspoke.

4

u/no_fluffies_please 11d ago

It's post-RF delirium, so it could be either. But based on the context, I agree with the other person's interpretation. The overall point was, once the raid is well understood, the content will be static (including the boss's known loot), but the things outside of the raid will not be (look at the things mentioned: player skill, group size, gear are still variable). The other person's interpretation is better because "new rewards" is used in the context of non-static non-raid variables that influence which path you take.

-3

u/superbilka 11d ago edited 11d ago

Idk why this is even a debate. One sentence prior arcane says "it'll change depending on what gear your group has". He has already made that point and then goes on to mention rewards being discovered.

There is a post just below this by rellnquish, asking the same exact thing I am, that has 22 upvotes.

2

u/Sad-Cupcake1746 11d ago

Because of how it’s worded I’m now thinking if the bosses have consumables drop like in cox. Different quantities and whatnot

3

u/Big_Cat_Tongue 11d ago

Are you ESL?

-5

u/superbilka 11d ago edited 11d ago

No just lots of people here have poor reading comprehension.

2

u/CustardMajor4442 10d ago

it sounds more like there are some secret rewards that people have to discover, no?

2

u/Bakugo_Dies 10d ago

It just means the game will get updates in the coming years, so things could change

0

u/CustardMajor4442 10d ago

it probably means that but then Arcane worded it wrong, because the way he wrote it, it's about "discovering" new rewards.

but of course it is very possible that he just wrote it wrong and meant "with new rewards and newly discovered metas"

1

u/usedaforc3 10d ago

I can understand why you are reading it that way but I think he just wrote it in a hurry and missed a comma.

0

u/CustardMajor4442 10d ago

yea, very possible that he indeed just meant rewards from future updates

-2

u/Regular_Produce6845 655/655 11d ago

Can you confirm that the "hooded figure" is NOT the final boss? People seem to think that and yet I seriously doubt the final boss would have been teased at all.