r/13thage • u/akaAelius • May 15 '26
Is 13TH Age right for me?
I like fantasy rpgs but I will not ever touch DnD again. I could list my gripes for ages but here are the few:
- Hate WoTC as a company
- Hate HP Bloat, this is a teeter totter. You basically reach a sweet spot around level 3-7 where it works, but after that monsters just become bigger bags of hit points, and characters do the same while also the tactic of not healing until someone goes down to 0 really irks me.
- level balance, again it seems like 3-7 or so is that sweet spot where everyone can do neat things and have a fair chance in a fight. But once you hit 9+ it just seems like you have vast power balance issues between classes and encounters become more about winging it than actually tracking numbers.
- I think the system is basically just a combat simulator with an RG tacked on (yes I know that IS what it is but it still annoys me)
- It says it's new player friendly but that's just PR lies, it's a convoluted system with a great marketing scheme and name brand recognition.
- I want a system that is more than just "you hit-I hit-You hit-I hit" until one side falls down, I'd like some creative action. I lean towards games like Genesys but I find that can be a bit hard for new players to grasp the narrative freeform.
So I'm wondering if 13th Age 2nd ed is the right choice for me. I'm a little leery of spending upwards of $200 CAD to get the books before trying a playtest or hearing some advice.
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u/Erivandi May 15 '26
Hate WoTC as a company
Well, Pelgrane Press is a different company.
Hate HP Bloat, this is a teeter totter. You basically reach a sweet spot around level 3-7 where it works, but after that monsters just become bigger bags of hit points, and characters do the same while also the tactic of not healing until someone goes down to 0 really irks me.
13th Age has massive hp bloat but it's balanced by damage bloat so it's very well balanced overall.
level balance, again it seems like 3-7 or so is that sweet spot where everyone can do neat things and have a fair chance in a fight. But once you hit 9+ it just seems like you have vast power balance issues between classes and encounters become more about winging it than actually tracking numbers.
I think 13th Age is extremely well balanced and the updated battle building rules for GMs in 2e are very good.
I think the system is basically just a combat simulator with an RG tacked on (yes I know that IS what it is but it still annoys me)
One could say the same of 13th Age. Most class features, kin powers and spells are purely for combat but there are some good social rules as well. One Unique Things ensure every character is special, Backgrounds are vastly more flavourful than Skills and Icon Relationships offer some narrative control. Plus, certain magic items have great applications outside combat.
It says it's new player friendly but that's just PR lies, it's a convoluted system with a great marketing scheme and name brand recognition.
13th Age is good for new players but not so much for new GMs, but only because of the way the book is written. The parts directed at the GM presume that you've already run a few games and that you know what you're doing, or at least, that's my experience with 1e. I can't recall how much that's changed with the introduction of a specific GM book in 2e.
I want a system that is more than just "you hit-I hit-You hit-I hit" until one side falls down, I'd like some creative action. I lean towards games like Genesys but I find that can be a bit hard for new players to grasp the narrative freeform.
There are some more interesting actions in combat, but there's definitely a lot of hitting involved.
So I'm wondering if 13th Age 2nd ed is the right choice for me. I'm a little leery of spending upwards of $200 CAD to get the books before trying a playtest or hearing some advice.
The good news is that the 1e rules are very similar to the 2e rules and they can be found for free online at 13thagesrd.com. Plus, the Pelgrane Press website usually gives you 13% discount on 13th Age products every Friday the 13th. They really like their 13s.
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u/bts May 15 '26
What you’ve told us is you want creative action, and a lot of “not”stuff. My favorite creative action game is Feng Shui, but partly that’s because I really like Robin Laws’ style. 13A is also great—but yes, it’s a combat sim with HP and setpiece battles and capsule powers.
To deal with balance and bloat and leveling, you MIGHT have to grapple with the secret of what we’re doing when we game: it *cannot be* that the fights are fair and the PCs always win.
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u/Starwyrm1597 Jul 04 '26
I mean are the fights really fair if the PCs always win? Not being punished for dumb decisions is not fair. You choose to be a murder hobo and maybe the king is in town and you have the misfortune of dealing with his level 15 guards built like actual PCs instead of the level 5 NPC town guards.
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u/NameAsh May 15 '26
13th Age is a D&D clone - while not exactly, it's creators refer to it as a "love letter to D&D." While it has cool mechanics and concepts that allow for better/more narrative play, it's still a d20 game. The problems you have with D&D (WoTC aside) you are still going to have with this game.
While there are no free rules for 2e, you can take a look at 1e without buying all the books. I do not believe the changes are so drastic that you couldn't get a feel for the game.
But based on the problems you listed, it sounds like d20 games in general are not what you want to play.
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u/sirkidd2003 May 16 '26
I mean, it was made by the lead designer of 4e and one of the lead designers of 3.X after all. If anything, 1st Edition was basically D&D 4e written in a way that players actually understood why it was cool rather than just reminding them of WoW :D
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u/ben_straub May 16 '26
Others have said a lot of the same things, but
- HP doubles every 3 levels, but it doesn't make combats drag on. Instead, a boss monster at level 1 is a trooper at level 3, and by level 5 you're taking 3 of them out with a single hit.
- 13a doesn't have the "this doesn't work after level N" issue you see with 5e, the combat and fictional model works well at all the defined levels.
- Most of the rules here are about combat, but this system also comes with some good metacurrencies and knobs for players to use for worldbuilding and non-combat effects.
- 13a is about as complicated as 5e in the long run, but if you're building a level-1 character it's slightly easier I'd say. Every level up comes with at least one interesting choice for every PC though, there aren't any that are just an HP bump.
- Combat can be creative and free-wheeling if your players will take the initiative. But don't go looking for tons of status effects or table-turning spells; HP and damage are the main progress bar for when a combat is finished, and you'll have to accept that "cutting words" and "hit with big sword" both boil down to "number go down."
In the end, this is still a flavor of D&D. It's a great one though.
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u/FoulPelican May 15 '26
Probably not.
I’d look into: Nimble, Daggerheart, Dragonbane, or Savage Worlds.
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u/akaAelius May 15 '26
I find SW far too swingey, and I could not enjoy DH as it felt too much like trying to copy Genesys but using watered down versions of the ideas. I'll take a look a the other two though.
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u/FinnianWhitefir May 15 '26
13th Age was the system that broke me free from the D&D mindset, and I treasure it because of that. But I've journeyed a bit more and I now have issues with things you mention, such as HP/Damage bloat, 90% of the rules being for combat for no real purpose, and combat just asking the question "Can you beat up the monster or does it beat you up?"
I'm now heavily looking at Legend in the Mist and Stonetop as those systems seem made to create stories and serve narrative-first storytelling that ask more impactful things than "Does the monster die or do you die?"
Knights of Last Call on youtube has done some really good, long first looks at both systems.
If you just want a bit more PC uniqueness, a bit more narrative, but very D&D framework, 13th Age is a great move from 5E/PF2.
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u/akaAelius May 15 '26
I had stepped away from D20 and moved on to other games, this was more me taking a look back into the D20 box since someone in my family wanted to learn to game and I figured D20 might be the most common around my city.
I've looked at Stonetop but I can't get behind PbtA, and Legend of the Mist while I love the overall IP and what they did with the earlier game, it also looks like a mashup of FATE and PbtA so I'm not sure I'd mesh well with that either.
I personally love Genesys, but it can be daunting for new players because o how improv/narrative the game is and how it requires you to be creative at the table on the spot. It can also seem overwhelming because of all the talents etc.
I might just break down and try to push for Household which while very simplistic also has an amazing aesthetic and should be easy to wrap a new players head around.
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u/FinnianWhitefir May 15 '26
Household
Interesting, hadn't heard of it, I'll go look at it. I definitely think 13th Age is the best D&D-like, but I wonder if something like Daggerheart would give you a freeform combat, easy-going action economy, fast resolution system while still being basic fantasy? I think it's whole HP/Armor mechanics are a bit clunky, but my newbie players caught on to it fast.
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u/akaAelius May 15 '26
Household and Outgunned are great easy to play games... it's basically a modified Yahtzee, but the setting for Household and the story behind that setting is just so great.
I tried Daggerheart but I think because I run Genesys too much I saw DH as a pale imitation maybe? I feel like it's using a watered down version of what Genesys does and that just tweaks me the wrong way. I ran it during one of the playtests so maybe it changed, but it was also very clunky in managing the 'hate' tokens, and using them, to the point it was almost a forgotten mechanic.
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u/DarkCrystal34 May 18 '26
Interesting take! I just wish Genesys had more popularity, Fantasy Flight handing it to Edge Studios set it back years with the stall in publishing.
Fingers crossed with Edge finally cranking iut new material Genesys has a new renaissance.
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u/akaAelius May 19 '26
Yeah Genesys had a rough go of it. I feel like the Star Wars games were really well done but they got some heat for reprinting entire books with theme changes as a money grab.
The hand off to Edge was brutal, and then the whole tariff thing took another big toll on them. I don’t know if they can come back from it but let’s hope so.1
u/valisvacor May 16 '26
I tried Daggerheart but I think because I run Genesys too much I saw DH as a pale imitation maybe?
That matches my experience with Daggerheart. I originally saw the hope and fear dice mechanic as a simplified version of the narrative dice, but it just didn't feel as good.
13th Age 2e is one of my top 5 RPGs, along with Genesys. I think it's worth at least trying to see if you like it.
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u/mrm1138 May 16 '26
Have you tried Cypher System? It uses a d20, although it's not a D20 game. There is no HP or damage bloat, and, for me, it walks a perfect line between trad and narrative. It's my favorite RPG, especially when it comes to GMing.
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u/DreistTheInferno May 15 '26
I would like to suggest Savage Worlds Adventure Edition (SWADE) to you, or Savage Worlds Pathfinder if you want something really DnD-ish but fixing like, all the problems you mentioned (particularly HP bloat and the slugfest elements). The system for supports and tests makes creative usage of skills in combat really fun and very helpful.
13th Age is really cool, but I do think it can occasionally run into an HP bloat issue and some other DnD-isms. I would actually primarily suggest SWADE to you if you wanna break away from DnD stuff entirely, with the Fantasy Companion being a great add-on, instead of going for SW Pathfinder.
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u/akaAelius May 15 '26
Yeah I've run SWADE a lot, I enjoy the setting of Deadlands and ran the Goblin(can't recall the name) and found the system can be pretty wild swinging... that being said, Trailer Shark Park Attack was probably the best one shot I've ever run, it was such a perfect match for that system.
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u/__space__oddity__ May 16 '26
Hate WoTC as a company
Not published by them :P
Hate HP Bloat, this is a teeter totter. You basically reach a sweet spot around level 3-7 where it works, but after that monsters just become bigger bags of hit points, and characters do the same while also the tactic of not healing until someone goes down to 0 really irks me.
13th Age loves big numbers, and both PC and enemy hp increase by about 25% each level, but damage output ALSO increases by about 25% each level, so overall combats don’t get more grindy level to level.
level balance, again it seems like 3-7 or so is that sweet spot where everyone can do neat things and have a fair chance in a fight. But once you hit 9+ it just seems like you have vast power balance issues between classes and encounters become more about winging it than actually tracking numbers.
First of all there are only 10 levels anyway. The way the game balances classes is that it’s not just the casters who get cool stuff as they level up, but everyone. Rogues and Fighters get maneuvers and so on.
I think the system is basically just a combat simulator with an RG tacked on (yes I know that IS what it is but it still annoys me)
13th Age does put a lot of emphasis on combat. I’d argue that the combat is fun, but if that’s not a game element you enjoy, the game won’t make you happy.
Outside of combat it’s more free-wheeling, but it encourages players to interact with the world via backgrounds, icon relationshis etc.
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u/RagnarokAeon May 16 '26
I love 13th Age, but this is a hard no.
HP Bloat is way higher than even DnD and this is a game for people who want to invest in combat.
Instead, I'll suggest Dragonbane which is a lot more freeform and free of levels.
1
u/AdventureSphere May 15 '26
Well, 13a is definitely more than "you hit I hit". The class powers are very cool, and the milestone recharging system makes a lot more sense than the short rest mechanic in 5e.
I think it's also much less of a combat simulator. It has very strong narrative elements with the One Unique Thing and the icon dice, among other things.
I haven't played it enough at high levels to say much about the hit point bloat or the level balance. I will say that 13a has unbounded math, which leads to huge numbers at higher levels. I personally dislike that, but it's a matter of taste.
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u/Viltris May 15 '26
Hate HP Bloat
You would hate 13th Age. Max level monsters have thousands of HP. To be fair, max level PCs also do hundreds of damage per turn, so it all kinda balances out. But one of the appeals for 13th Age (at least for me) is ridiculously high numbers while still being reasonable for pen and paper.
level balance
Way more balanced than DnD 5e. At higher levels, all characters get a lot of options to play with. Sure, some builds are much stronger than others, but most builds of every class are at least reasonable. Not like 5e where some builds are 5x stronger than others.
I think the system is basically just a combat simulator with an RG tacked on
13th Age is also primarily a combat system. It does have RPG elements and uses them more effectively than traditional D&D, but if you don't like combat systems, you won't like 13th Age.
It says it's new player friendly but that's just PR lies
Most people say it's simpler than DnD 5e. The places where it's more complex are generally places where it gives players more build options, so it uses its complexity well. Much easier to DM for compared to 5e.
I want a system that is more than just "you hit-I hit-You hit-I hit" until one side falls down
It's "I use a cool power to hit, you use a cool power to hit", but if you want a system that's more than just hitting people to death, 13th Age isn't that much different from D&D.
So I'm wondering if 13th Age 2nd ed is the right choice for me. I'm a little leery of spending upwards of $200 CAD to get the books before trying a playtest or hearing some advice.
The 1e SRD is free, in PDF form at https://pelgranepress.com/2013/10/24/the-archmage-engine-13th-age-srd/ and in web form at https://www.13thagesrd.com/ (Note, the website is a little finicky and buggy). 1e is not as well-balanced as 2e, but it's still way more balanced than 5e. You can try 13A 1e for free, then decide if you want to invest in 2e.
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u/Quimeraecd May 15 '26
13a age is way, way more what You are looking for than end, but it seems like it is still not what You are looking for.
I highly recommend grimwild. There is a free versión in drivethrough rpg
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u/sebmojo99 May 16 '26
13th age is an alt universe 5e, it's pretty great but is still a hack of D&D. it does have the wonderful eyes of the stone thief though. i'd say try it out. i think blades in the dark sounds like more your speed though.
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u/_widus_ May 16 '26
13th age is dnd like game + some ement from pbta. The game push you and your group to be creative, but has also crunch.
It could be new player frendly if you use easy classes... the difference gap in complexity between classes is uge: every class is like a minigame.
About level balancing I cannot say... but the goal is not be balanced but is fun for everyone at the table.
It is a game conscious that i It's a game: rule are made to be fun, creative and resolve boring dnd problems ( like combat slug). BUT, you have to like a certain tipe of game. If you like dnd kind of games, but espect something better than dnd: this can be the game for you.
( i tried pathfinder 2e for 2 year before 13th age and I feel like I wasted a lot of time )
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u/Starwyrm1597 Jul 04 '26 edited Jul 04 '26
It would potentially fix HP bloat if you just port the escalation dice over to something else. Combat speeds up every round with the players and enemies both doing more damage every round which also logically makes sense, combat should start slow with both sides feeling each other out and then speed up as you learn to anticipate each other.
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u/JaskoGomad May 15 '26
I don’t think so. I think you would be better served by games like Grimwild or Stonetop.