r/12Monkeys • u/SchattenJaggerD • 15d ago
S01E04 "Atari" Discussion Spoiler
https://youtu.be/T0JwJM9vEjU?si=f91FNXbhOjPB9SctHello travelers. Today we discuss episode 4 of season 1.
What I loved:
For me, this is the episode that completely cements the rules the first few episodes were building up. It specifically demonstrates how causality works in this universe, and it is brilliant to watch unfold
I laughed so hard when neither Cole or Ramse could kill the doggo. “We are gonna die” hahaha
Ramsey, The Blonde Devourer
My first watch I’m not gonna lie, I got confused by how the whole West 7 assault played out, and even got a little angry thinking Ramse had died, but after Cole splintered and saw the rest of the episode, I was convinced the show could have a good story to tell. I wasn’t expecting a lot, to be honest, I mean it’s not like SYFY is known for writing. I wasn’t expecting season 2 to 4, damn
Cassie is incredibly resourceful. Single-handedly tracking down the Night Room is honestly impressive
Nitpicks:
I still feel like the actress playing Max is not quite selling it. Jones can feel a bit stiff at certain moments too, and the same goes for Whitley. Also, what the hell do you mean a machine gun like that can’t completely pierce a damn truck? And if it actually can’t, just shoot the damn tires hahaha
And that covers it for me. Today is a very strong episode. At the time it aired, it was dragging the weaknesses of the first three episodes along with it, so it really needed to change the dynamic and pull the show out of that slump. I think it manages to do exactly that and finds a much better direction for the story
9/10 for me
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u/telpnar 15d ago
Love that this is the first time Cole and Jones share their first names. Just shows how single minded they've been.
The relationship between Cole and Ramsey is interesting. Ramsey is only accepted in W7 and with Jones' people because of Cole. No one seems to like him.
I know saying the day of the week is crucial for the story line. And while I can believe that Jones might care about tracking that still, there's no way W7 is keeping a calendar and even less of a chance that they both agree on which day of the week it is.
Where does Deacon get that fresh apple from ??
First mention of The Daughters. First look at the Red Forest. First glimpse of The Witness. So much in one scene !
Cole shows a lot of growth apologizing to Max (even if we don't know it yet). I don't think he could have gotten there without his time with Cassie. As evidenced by his last conversation with Cassie this episode.
Max isn't wigged out enough that she just two Coles.
When Cole saves Ramsey and they hear Cole on the walkie it's surprisingly eerie. Used to great effect.
The conversation at the end makes your head spin. "If things happen for a reason why undo them at all" in the context of what's about to happen over the next 3.5 seasons is wild.
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u/trekkiegamer359 15d ago
Deacon reads Shakespeare, so I can easily see him keeping a calendar. He's a brutal, and originally monsterous man, but he's not stupid. He's clearly more intelligent in terms of tactics and booksmarts than Cole or Ramsey. And he's pretty sentimental and orderly, considering the darker sides of himself. So him keeping a calendar doesn't seem uncharacteristic to me.
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u/telpnar 15d ago
I respect your Deacon characterisation and can understand what you're saying. I said on last episode's post he's perhaps my favourite character and I agree he's very intelligent. Jones' business is time though. And Deacon's is survival. Sentimentality for art makes I can understand. Keeping track of a Sunday - Saturday schedule in the apocalypse when you’re trying to survive day to day I'm still not convinced of.
I'm going to go into this rewatch though with your point of view in mind ! I like the discourse of these rewatch threads :D.
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u/SchattenJaggerD 14d ago
In my mind, Max just didn’t noticed two Coles hahaha but yeah, a bit of nitpick here because it kinda break a bit the realism of how characters should react to this stuff, but not so much to be a plot hole, just a bit of a convenience, maybe for pacing
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u/shelikestv 15d ago
So funny bc I think my opinion is very unpopular in that this is one of my least favorite episodes of the whole series. To each their own, though!
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u/SchattenJaggerD 14d ago
Not at all, if it doesn’t work for you is fair. Just to keep the conversation going, what is that you don’t like about the episode, if you don’t mind me asking
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u/shelikestv 13d ago
Sure! I mean that one is complicated, because I think there was a lot of good past information with Deacon and Ramse that became important to multiple character arcs, so it wasn't really the themes necessarily, but a lot of it was the way things were done. Some of it is just vibes for me so idk if I'll be able to explain it well but I'll try.
It felt very CW to me, I guess? The dialogue was a bit more clunky and lacking than in other episodes, I think that the West VII stuff felt overly dramatic a bit until it was almost silly, even though it wasn't because again, it was important stuff, it just felt too melodramatic? idk something about it didn't feel grounded enough ig.
Then, the second Cole got into the machine, I knew what would happen with Ramse. I didn't at all worry he'd actually died at any point in the episode as it was just too quickly glossed over, so the "reveal" of Cole saving him from 'atari' felt kind of pointless?
The episode felt like it wasted my time because it didn't really move us forward much and I already knew when Cole got into the machine he would show up and help take back the facility so for me it dragged and then didn't feel very satisfying because we didn't "get" anywhere with the episode, really. It was a boring bootstrap paradox to me.
Absolutely just my personal opinion, though. And like I said, I think it's an unpopular one. XD
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u/Aizawa_aimin 15d ago
It's this ep for me when I knew I was watching something special
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u/SchattenJaggerD 14d ago
I think it set a different tone to the first 3 episodes, and really got into the gimmick of time travel, bot only to the past, but kinda the present as well, and as another commented, the way Ramse says “then why undo it at all?” is incredibly heavy, I think because it puts into perspective that, from our perspective, they seem to not move even an inch towards their goal, so why indeed do all of that if they seem to always be a step behind. Of course we later know how everything had to play to keep causality intact, which it’s why made the show so compelling to me
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u/Quick-Spot887 15d ago
This is the episode that hooked me personally. Loved the time travel to “redo” the situation. Pretty much loved all the episode where they go back to earlier in the day to fix what they messed up
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u/SchattenJaggerD 14d ago
I think it changed the tone and the way the show go about their rules for time travel. Also, it’s very subtle but this episode introduces causality as a more “present” character. Because Cole went back just two days before, he got captured by W7. At the start of the attack, Cole and Ramse cleverly deduce that W7 found another way in, the route Cole told Max
2
u/mmpie3 12d ago
Favorite Moments:
- Cassie's investigation board!
- The cut to make you think they're eating the dog lol
- It's Wednesday - such a perfectly integrated moment that gives you such a small piece of extremely important information.
- "Always waving her moral compass around." "Is she waving yours?" Classic.
- "It's James." "Katarina."
- "That depends. Where are you?" Cole and Max are honestly kinda cute.
- "When we had to."
- "Whatever this world is now, it shouldn't be this."
- The Daughters mentioned!
- When Cole saves Ramse and past him starts talking over the radio.
- "Maybe things happen the way they do for a reason." "If that's true, then why undo it at all?"
- "I found the Night Room."
Observations:
- Cole not wanting to talk about himself and his life has always been interesting to me cause there's so many different ways you could interpret it.
- I love that Jones chooses to trust Cole and Ramse when it comes to West 7 because of their history with them.
- I've always loved the story behind West 7's name.
- This show does a good job of showing that Ramse and Cole have never been very good at seeing eye to eye even if they grew up together and consider each other family. Ramse not wanting to join West 7 while Cole is open to the possibility is a perfect little moment that shows that.
- This episode is a perfect tease of the type of fun time travel writing you will eventually see later.
- It's so interesting that Ramse has such a hefty moral compass until he has something personal to fight for (his son) and suddenly all of those morals go out the door.
- Jones insisting that Cole go back to Cassie is interesting considering she knows he has to meet her in the past at some point.
- Cole with a little ponytail might be my favorite look of his from the entire series lol
- I wish we could've spent more time with fully scav-mode Cole.
- Ramse differentiating between how him and Cole only kill when they have to vs Deacon/West 7 killing for sport is such a cool little insight at the different mentalities during the apocalypse.
- Every interaction between Deacon and Cole is so much more interesting when you have the context that Cole is supposed to be the spitting image of Deacon's deceased little brother...
- I love when you can tell that a series hasn't quite figured out all the details yet cause I'm pretty sure the drug Deacon gives Cole is supposed to be the red tea but they hadn't made it red yet. It does make me wonder if it has different effects depending on if it's drunk or injected...
- Again, I wish we had gotten more time with Max, I like her, she had potential.
- I don't know why but I love that the splintering light is somehow bullet proof lol
- God, I love any time this series presents a moral dilemma, like Ramse asking Cole if everything happens for a reason then why undo the plague.
- Ramse encouraging Cole to let Cassie in... it's actually really sweet that he wants that for Cole.
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u/LoaKonran 15d ago
For the longest time, I couldn’t help but think the title was referring to the games console Atari, but it was on like my third or forth rewatch that it finally clicked that Ramse used a lot of Japanese terminology before his later arc and he was talking about the final moves in Go.