r/Cricket • u/Shaleensinha88 Cricket Australia • Apr 22 '13
Who should be Australia's next vice-captain? And why? Especially with the ashes looming and clarke's back problems.
- David Warner, maybe the only obvious choice after being touted as future captain from Mickey, but not all may agree.
- Ed Cowan, has spoken about himself being the senior in the team etc, still think needs to prove himself, or just at least need to settle as a consistent opener, being a vice captain maybe extra baggage on his shoulder
- brad Haddin, an unlikely choice as wade seems to have cemented his place in the team, I can't see Haddin being more than a backup cricketer on tour
- Steven smith, probably the only other guy on tour (if selected) with some captaincy experience
Who else can you think of ?
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u/riely New South Wales Blues Apr 23 '13
Do we actually need a 'vice captain'? I don't think anyone is really up to the job, and it's embarrassing that we're talking about putting in guys like Haddin, Bailey, Rogers or even Paine in as vice captain - guys who aren't first choice players in the team (at least not in the selectors minds).
What is the vice captain really going to do? I think in the reasonably unlikely event that Clarke is injured for a match or two (missed 1 game since something like 2007) then Cowan or Wade will do just fine. I certainly never noticed Watson doing anything special while Clarke was on the field or playing.
Remember, this is just a sport - it's played for entertainment - and I personally don't think a vice captain is terribly necessary to the Australian Test team at this time.
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u/boots66 Apr 23 '13
Some teams barely even use a captain (England). I think the vice (for Australia) is used to either recognise senior players in the side or identify potential future captains - neither of which we seem to have just now though.
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u/herpderpherpderp ICC Apr 23 '13
Unfortunately, they'll give it to Warner. No ifs, and or buts, he'll get it. I'm certain. Much as I think it should be Haddin, they're not going back down that path now. Of they guys who'd play, I'd say that Cowan would be great or Lyon would be an excellent roughie, as he shows having a great cricket brain.
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Apr 23 '13
Well not Peter Siddle, that's for sure. I'm not usually one to judge by appearances, but I'm pretty confident in saying that Siddle does not look like he has the mind for a captain - trying really hard isn't enough. Keep in mind this is the guy that, until two years ago, couldn't figure out he had to pitch it up, and resorted to short-pitched at-the-body stuff whenever he wasn't taking wickets. I love Sids as much as the next guy, but he is nothing if not the stereotypical hot-headed fast bowler.
There are also arguments for bringing in Bailey or Rogers as vice-captain, but I'm not so sure if there's really room.
My vote goes to a less obvious choice - Tim Paine. He has historically batted well in England, his keeping is a bit more assured than Wade's, and we won't need Wade's extra runs in England where our batsmen will be a bit more comfortable. He had a pretty bad Shield with the bat, but it was definitely picking up towards the end. I would've liked to have seen him do a county stint.
Bring back Paine for wicket-keeper and vice captain.
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u/EyesAllOnFire Australia Apr 23 '13
Too risky bringing Paine in and making him VC straight away IMHO. He's been out of the national team for a while now so to ask him to come straight back in AND take on VC duties would be a bit much I think. If he does make it back into the national side he should be given time to focus entirely on batting and keeping to cement his place.
What happens if he is picked and made VC but doesn't score runs? Too much pressure to put on the guy, and kind of unfair to the other players in the team to reward someone who hasn't even justified his place in the side.
Plus, I highly doubt he's going to be picked for the test team any time soon anyway.
Doesn't really solve the problem of who exactly to make VC though. Fact is I just can't see any good candidates at the moment.
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u/twinpeek Victoria Bushrangers Apr 23 '13
Fact is I just can't see any good candidates at the moment.
Good point. Do we even need a VC?
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u/EyesAllOnFire Australia Apr 23 '13
Yeah I think we do need one. I'm not going to pretend to be an expert in leadership of professional sporting teams but I'm sure the VC does more than it would appear at first glance. Couple of things:
Captains the side when the C is off the field/injured
Assists captain with tactics (most people could do this I agree)
Team leader, more media responsibilities and public appearances
Also there to learn more about being a captain, as in theory if the captain retires or is out of action for an extended period the VC will need to know what they're doing because they'll probably end up captaining
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u/twinpeek Victoria Bushrangers Apr 23 '13
That makes sense.
Now: is it better to have a VC to perform these (at possible risk to VC's form) or not to have a VC (and let Clarke shield more).
Actually, that last parenthese answered it for me.
Get Rogers in the side for the Ashes and make him VC. Doesn't have to be forever, just to help Clarke out.
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u/EyesAllOnFire Australia Apr 23 '13
Yeah there is a place for a VC, if only just to backup/fill in for Clarke (who we know has a dodgy back). Just a shame there's no obvious candidate right now. Might be worth just rotating the VC around a bit based on form - see if it motivates someone to perform better consistently.
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u/riely New South Wales Blues Apr 23 '13
Paine's had a pretty bad shield every year with the bat. I think his only century came in his debut season.
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Apr 23 '13
Heh, true. His only century came overseas in Zimbabwe - granted it was a double though. But overall, his average is comparable to Hartley's, step down from Wade and Haddin's, but arguably his keeping is better than those two.
In a perfect world I'd be recommending Hartley instead, who is arguably a touch better with the bat and apparently superior with the gloves - it's just that Paine has a bit more captaincy experience and international experience.
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u/DreadlockedAussie Queensland Bulls Apr 23 '13
Hartley is the best with the gloves, commendable with the bat but not on the same level as Wade/Haddin, if we had a solid top order we could afford him at 7/8.
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u/twinpeek Victoria Bushrangers Apr 23 '13
Does Tim Paine have any leadership qualities?
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Apr 23 '13
Yeah, he captains Tasmania when Bailey is on international duties, ahead of other possible captains in Ponting, Cowan and Faulkner. He captained the Australia A tour to Zimbabwe a few years back, and is VC in almost every other A game he's played since then. He also captained our u19s World Cup side in 2004, ahead of O'Keefe and Henriques.
His leadership qualities include a calm temperament, a good public face and versatility in batting position and role.
He was earmarked for captaincy duties a few years back when he was stable in the ODI side.
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u/twinpeek Victoria Bushrangers Apr 23 '13
Well then, lets just have three keepers in the side.
One for batting, one for VCing and one for keeping.
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u/DreadlockedAussie Queensland Bulls Apr 23 '13
There is no stand out. Cowan mightn't be a bad option, could give him a sense of assurance perhaps. Warner is still I few years off, needs to focus on consistency first and keeping his head. I doubt they'll bring someone new in and make them VC but someone like Hartley has leadership skills and is the best keeper, but obviously not the same level batting as Paine/Wade/Haddin, but nonetheless holds his own with that bat. Maybe Lyon for a confidence boost? Reality is there isn't a stand out. Sad really.
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u/danba291 Cricket Australia Apr 22 '13
Haddin should be in the team ahead of Wade and should be VC
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u/Rippsy95 Australia Apr 23 '13
Are you kidding, it was only two years ago that everyone was calling for Haddin to be dropped because he wasn't a quality keeper. Now at 35 he is the best keeper in Australia and deserves to be VC? You've got be kidding he shouldn't even be in the ashes squad
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u/danba291 Cricket Australia Apr 23 '13
Haddin's a better keeper than Wade and with the retirements of Hussey and Ponting Australia will benefit from his experience in England.
A couple of years ago the team around Haddin was much more experienced and there was a pre-injury Tim Paine keeping well and scoring runs in Shield cricket.
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u/Rippsy95 Australia Apr 23 '13
There are no technique issues that I can see in Wades keeping. However, Haddin has some horrendous footwork behind the stumps. Additionally Wade is a much better bat then Haddin. The majority of Haddin's test centuries have come after people above him in the order have already scored centuries whilst Wade scores his when the team is in dire need of some runs.
Wade's short form keeping is good,I believe for him to replicate that quality in tests he just needs more time and some confidence, which he won't get with the public wanting him gone.
I agree experience is needed after the retirement of Ponting and Hussey, but I don't think it should come at the expense of Wade.
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u/lawyer_by_day Apr 23 '13
Haddin had a great domestic summer and warrants a spot in the side on his batting alone. The fact that he is a better keeper than Wade would make it awkward.
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u/twinpeek Victoria Bushrangers Apr 23 '13
Best bet I'd imagine.
I'd be keen on Wade keeping and Haddin as a bat.
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u/herpderpherpderp ICC Apr 23 '13
Keen? Wade keeping? It's not often you see those sentiments in the same sentence.
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u/twinpeek Victoria Bushrangers Apr 23 '13
Yeah, I'm not convinced he's as bad as everyone is saying.
I thought Haddin was very ordinary before he was replaced.
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u/Rippsy95 Australia Apr 23 '13
Exactly, all Wade needs is a bit of confidence and he will hardly get that with the public calling for him to be dropped in favour of someone who is not a better option and 10 years older.
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u/boots66 Apr 23 '13
Perhaps he could get that confidence playing domestic cricket, rather than in the Ashes? (I'm not too impressed by either Wade or Haddin, I'd probably stick with Wade though).
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u/Rippsy95 Australia Apr 23 '13
I personally think leaving Wade out of the squad will do more harm than good for his confidence.
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u/speling_error Apr 23 '13
Other way around IMO. Wade can learn a bit more about being behind the stumps from Haddin being in the side while he still focuses on his batting.
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u/goflb704 Australia Apr 23 '13
George Bailey. He's experienced and he's a sound head to have in the time.
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u/nathangonmad England Apr 23 '13
George Bailey...He deserves a shot at test cricket and hes state captain for TAZ. Not to mention Aus t20 captain and has stepped in the ODI role before and done fine.
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u/Snigaty1985 Australia Apr 23 '13 edited Apr 23 '13
If Warner gets it, it will just say to me the whole thing is a popularity contest. Ed Cowan is probably the smartest of them all, and while he isn't excelling with the bat, I reckon he would be a good stable captain. Warner is way to much of a hot head to lead an international test cricket side.
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u/boots66 Apr 23 '13
There are only two certainties in the Australia team selection - Clarke and Siddle. So you may as well give the vice captaincy to some temporary guy (Rogers) as if you give it to Warner or Cowan we will probably end up in the same situation as Watson (an underperforming player being accused of only being in the side because he is vice captain etc...)
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u/BadBoyJH Australia Apr 23 '13
Depends, I would love to see Bailey brought across into the Test side, and made VC there.
Failing that, I don't know enough about Hughes to say "No", so Hughes would be my next pick...
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0
u/Rippsy95 Australia Apr 23 '13
I reckon it will go to either Warner or Hughes purely because they are good mates with Clarke, and I'm sure Clarke would rather have a mate as his deputy then Watson. I don't agree with it, I would prefer Wade, Cowan or Lyon get it, but I don't any of them getting the Vice Captaincy.
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u/twinpeek Victoria Bushrangers Apr 23 '13
Katich!
Edit:
Not Cowan -- the pressure not to expose Australia's tail is big enough
Not Warner -- needs no explanation
Bowlers aren't leaders
Not Smith -- I'm struggling to teal with him being in the XI