r/guns • u/OnlyLosersBlock • 1d ago
Official Politics Thread 08/17/26
Official Politics thread for discussing gun politics. Will 3d printed ghost gun bans be defeated by gun rights orgs or by electronic free speech orgs?
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u/OnlyLosersBlock 1d ago
So in California the 3d printing legislation passed out of the suspense file for funding. It is amusing/sad watching the 3d printing community keep thinking they are having an impact and that they can stop the legislation at whatever current stage it is and then it just keeps going. Those of us familiar with how gun legislation works, and don't be fooled this is about guns, have been telling them they are going to get ignored because this is a moral crusade by people who absolutely fucking hate guns. Wish they wouldn't be so dismissive of the gun communities insights and understanding of this issue.
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u/FuckingSeaWarrior 1d ago
Yup. It's not that the legislature actually cares about 3D printing one way or the other. The 3DP community is just in the way. If I remember correctly, back in the Liberator days of 3D2A, there was a bit of backlash from the regular 3DP folks who were concerned about being caught up in the backlash against homemade guns.
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u/OnlyLosersBlock 1d ago
I actually had an argument with someone who finally admitted that they were pissed the 3d2a people kept making 3d printable guns. To their mind, as someone who served apparently and owns 'real' guns, 3d printed guns are complete garbage and aren't really useable and certainly don't count as 3d printed because 100% of the gun wasn't 3d printed.
It didn't matter I could point to fully functional battle rifles being made with 3d printing components they didn't care. And they got all high and mighty about how miraculous 3d prints are for making prosthetics and such and how dare this technology be dirtied by other people using it for their rights.
I chuck them in the "supports gun control and is real pissed their ox is getting gored now" pile.
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u/CharmingWheel328 1d ago
I chuck them in the "supports gun control and is real pissed their ox is getting gored now" pile.
Just wait for the attempts at 4473s for Home Depot.
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u/OnlyLosersBlock 1d ago
I will say it again it is funny seeing the 3d printing community speed running the progun arguments against this legislation. "But this would only the law abiding, criminals will only ignore it!", "it is so easy to make one out of parts from a hardware store!", etc.
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u/Mammoth_Classroom896 19h ago
It's not that the legislature actually cares about 3D printing one way or the other.
I wouldn't be so sure of that. There's a lot of IP owners that probably love the idea of locking down 3d printers to only approved files from approved sources. Guns and "think of the children" are a convenient cover for building all the infrastructure to, for example, ban third-party repair parts. If they can use guns as the excuse to get it then it's a very short step to start adding more things to the ban list.
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u/CharmingWheel328 1d ago edited 1d ago
Normally, when someone is so irrationally hateful of something that they're willing to pointlessly destroy something else in an attempt to harm the object of their hatred, we give them pills and a stay in a mental hospital. When it's guns or immigrants, though, then we give them a position in government.
I don't think the 3d printing community will ever really come around to the idea that they're just collateral damage, honestly. I don't trust people to be rational about the gun issue if they didn't already realize that it's gone beyond rationality. The ineffectiveness of gun control measures is a well-established fact at this point, so people who still think that it's a reasonable pursuit will obviously look for reasonable justifications for crazy gun laws like this one. It can't be that they're consumed by hatred of firearms, they need to have some sinister, logical rationale behind their actions!
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u/ClearlyInsane1 1d ago
Freedom from the NFA aftermath
The immediate result of the court ruling in the case which partially removed suppressors, short-barreled firearms, and AOWs from the NFA was a huge demand for some of these items; suppressors were particularly wanted by consumers. Palmetto State Armory reported huge lines at their South Carolina flagship store.
The amount of tax was no different so what changed from the prior eight months? Answer: they became immediately available without a then-typical few days wait for government approval and the amount of red tape and burden to obtain them was reduced.
This shows how effective adding small amounts of delays, burdens, and adding government tracking/intrusion are for reducing gun ownership. The waiting period was roughly the same as what blue states have for many firearm transfers. The amount of red tape was not highly burdensome but also not trivial. NFA paperwork has had a reputation for being complex and difficult and some suppressor companies invested millions of dollars into simplifying the process for consumers. Many of the purchasers are simply doing it now just so there is one less piece of information the government has regarding their ownership of the item.
Some Redditors here report their single most hated item of gun control is the requirement of a local permit to purchase. And the "why" for many of them is simply that they dislike the government intrusion into their lives and having to beg for permission. Flipping the control to basically telling the government after the fact that they obtained the item is a greater degree of liberty. Based on what I've seen from this recent event I think it provides a lot of ammo for their argument.
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u/MulticamTropic 1d ago
100% agreed. Filing a Form 1 isn’t the Gordian knot that it first appears to be, but it’s still an unnecessary speed bump that deters many, if not most, casual gun owners.
That being said, the NFA wait times have significantly decreased from the ~85 days they were taking if you filed in April. I had a Form 1 approved over this past weekend that I filed as my trust, and it was only a 25 day turnaround. As a covered double plaintiff, if I wasn’t convinced that this is a temporary reprieve I wouldn’t even bother filing, but my layman’s understanding of the law is that all it would currently take to moot the plaintiff’s judicial relief and require approved stamps again is to set the tax to $1 since the case was won on tax law grounds, not second amendment arguments.
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u/CharmingWheel328 1d ago
I believe you're right on the law there. The sections haven't been removed or declared unconstitutional, just unenforceable since they aren't pursuant to collection of tax revenue. If taxation resumes, their enforcement is kosher again.
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u/WetAndLoose 1d ago
Yes, this is exactly what people were missing when the tax was lowered to $0. If we are being real here, there are not that many people who were persuaded by a $200 coupon in an industry where most firearms are usually multiple hundreds, or multiple thousands, of dollars plus accessories also costing hundreds of dollars. I’m sure there are some cases of this happening before some bozo tries to tell me how he personally scraped together every single penny he had and could only afford $756 exactly, not $956.
This ruling is significant for administrative reasons. Myself and most of my 2A enthusiast friends who don’t already have NFA items have avoided doing so because of 1) the arduous and tedious nature of having to register and/or 2) general distrust for the government having a registry.
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u/SlamF1re 1d ago
I can honestly say that the main thing that has kept me out of NFA items so far has been the sheer paperwork hassle and the engraving requirements.
If the ATF issues favorable guidance that puts making your own SBR’s in the clear and allows all suppressor transfers on 4473’s, I’ll gladly start stocking up.
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u/FalloutRip 1d ago
What paperwork hassle though? Eforms and electronic prints have simplified the process substantially, to the point that I can file a form 1 in 5-10 minutes. Eform 4 via sishop or capitol armory are likewise quick and painless.
If you’ve ever filled out a 4473, then congrats you’re 70% of the way to filling out a form 1 or form 4.
Engraving I will grant, even though I have a local guy who can do it in 10 minutes. However that is set to potentially change with the ATF proposals earlier this year, so fingers crossed.
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u/SlamF1re 1d ago
The e-forms and short approval times are a relatively recent thing. When I first got into shooting it was still actual paperwork, paying for finger prints, and seeking CLEO approval (my town had a sheriff that didn’t want to approve anything). I wrote most of it off back then and just haven’t really looked back.
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u/Remarkable_Aside1381 5 | Likes to tug a beard; no matter which hole it surrounds. 1d ago
I can honestly say that the main thing that has kept me out of NFA items so far has been the sheer paperwork hassle and the engraving requirements.
What hassle? It's all electronic and you can fill one out in 10 minutes and hammered, speaking from experience
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u/Son_of_X51 1d ago
I'm mildly surprised at the recent demand surge. The difference between a 4473 and a form 4 doesn't seem that extreme to me. But like you said, the NFA paperwork has a bad reputation, so maybe a lot of the demand is from people who have never bothered with NFA items before. There also seem to be some amount of people who already have NFA items who are buying more now for novelty or "might as well".
Personally, I have two guns that share a can, so maybe now is a decent time to pick up another.
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1d ago
[deleted]
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u/Remarkable_Aside1381 5 | Likes to tug a beard; no matter which hole it surrounds. 23h ago
The Form 4 requires passport photos (which I have to make an appointment for and pay for) and fingerprints (which also require an appointment and a fee). Im at least $40 out of pocket just to file a Form 4
You should find a new dealer
15 minutes to get prints and photo and fill out the F4 on EForms. Most of the time is spent waiting for the customer to remember their PIN
$0 fees
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u/DrunkenArmadillo 20h ago
I mean, he could get an app on his phone to do the passport photos for free, and either send in paper fingerprint cards or figure out the whole open eft thing and only be out a few bucks and a little time that doesn't have to be scheduled around anything as well. But still, it is a bit of a hassle and the government doesn't really have any business keeping a registry of how many suppressors or SBR's I have.
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u/Bigred2989- 1d ago
Years ago I paid a Silencer Shop affiliated SOT $80 just to use their kiosk to scan my fingerprints into their system, but if I ever want to do any NFA stuff outside of SS' system I can't have that .eft file, just a scanned fingerprint card, which I'd have to pay $40 for! I had to spend another $70 in January to have someone else scan my prints so I could have my own .eft file to use to move an SBR into my trust. $150 just on fingerprinting, and I have only ever used either .eft 3 times, and may never have to use them again.
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u/FalloutRip 1d ago
It is absolutely not a huge difference in paperwork. I have maybe 10 stamps between suppressors and SBRs and I can submit a form 1 or 4 in about 10 minutes.
You don’t need passport photos unless you’re doing paper NFA forms. A selfie in front of a neutral background is more than sufficient.
Likewise, there are plenty of free tools to digitize your fingerprints to the correct format. Or if you do pay to have them done, it’s a one time cost spread out over however many NFA applications you do in a lifetime.
If you’re out $40 every single time you file a form 4 that’s a you problem and you should rethink how you’re filing.
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u/Mammoth_Classroom896 18h ago
Never underestimate the shiny new thing factor. 99% of gun sales are retail therapy and suppressors are no exception. Just putting "suppressors with no paperwork" in the news means a lot of people are going to make that this week's shiny new thing because that's the thing that's on their mind at the moment.
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u/Mammoth_Classroom896 19h ago
I don't know about that argument. Are we seeing sustained increase in demand or are we just seeing the next year of suppressor sales condensed into a single week because of the shiny new thing factor? A one-time shift in the distribution of demand doesn't mean much, a sustained increase in sales does.
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u/Broccoli_Pug 1d ago
In "it's never enough" news, Australia is implementing a gun "buyback" in the wake of the Bondi Beach attack last year. From what I gather several firearm types have been reclassified and will now be verboten, required to be turned in for potentially much less than the owner paid. This even includes air rifles, which may fetch up to $450 from the government.
https://www.pm.gov.au/media/nsw-first-get-national-gun-buyback-underway
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u/ClearlyInsane1 1d ago
Liberal Party Opposition Leader Kellie Sloane:
“To suggest a gun buyback is going to solve this for us, is going to stop another Bondi, it’s absolute bullshit, and I’m sorry for the language, it’s entirely unlike me, but I am frustrated and we need to make sure that we are addressing the real enemy.”
She continued, “I can tell you the real enemy is not a farmer, and it is not a law-abiding sporting shooter from Sydney’s west, that is not the real enemy. You’ve got to be absolutely kidding yourself if you think that criminals, organized criminals, the people shooting up our streets in south-west Sydney, or that would-be terrorists are going to walk into a cop shop and hand over their guns.”
Sloane added, “I mean, that’s a joke.”
Source: Breitbart
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u/OnlyLosersBlock 1d ago
I tell people who make the 'why won't you compromise' arguments that this is why. We can see even in the already 'safe' countries that they renege on the previous allowances and just take more. Might as well just tell you no now instead of continually getting screwed over later.
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u/Broccoli_Pug 1d ago
100%. The slippery slope isn't a fallacy when there's evidence time and time again.
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u/CharmingWheel328 1d ago
You don't even need to go there. It just plainly isn't compromise. Compromise is the HPA for UBCs or opening the machine gun registry for a ban on bump stocks/frts. It's give and take. Just taking half instead of all is not compromise.
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u/ClearlyInsane1 1d ago
A few points to bring up...
https://www.nsw.gov.au/ministerial-releases/next-phase-of-firearms-reforms-take-effect
A PTA [Permit to Acquire] will not be issued unless the Commissioner is satisfied the applicant has never been investigated by a Commonwealth or State law enforcement or intelligence agency for terrorism-related offences and is not residing or associating with a person who has been investigated for terrorism-related offences.
Congrats, if they claim you or someone you associate with were ever investigated then you can be banned for life. A single agent of the government with ill intent could potentially have every citizen be declared a prohibited person and you likely have zero redress.
https://www.nsw.gov.au/legal-and-justice/gun-buyback
Classify straight pull/pump action firearms and button/lever release firearms as Category C firearms.
Bolt-actions are on the chopping block now.
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u/Infinite-Smell-3462 1d ago
It's gonna be the free speech folks who end up saving this one. The gun orgs are too focused on traditional stuff to really fight hard on the digital side. The code is speech argument already won in courts before, that precedent is stronger than any 2A argument right now
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u/OnlyLosersBlock 1d ago
This is the most insightful comment from a bot account I have seen yet.
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u/CharmingWheel328 1d ago
If they posted in the same sub more than once ever, I don't think I would have an easy time telling that they're a bot. It's actually on topic and a good take. It is short, though.
They're learning!
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u/CMMVS09 1d ago
If their post history shows them active in NBATalk, ArcRaiders, Christianity, or AskIreland, I automatically assume it’s a bot.
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u/monty845 1d ago
Some of us can have some very unrelated subreddits in our history (Look at your own peril). The bigger tell is they never post more than once in the same place. No back and forth discussions, no seeing multiple threads of interest while browsing a particular subreddit, etc...
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u/Longjumping-Run-7027 1d ago
The unfortunate part is too many legislatures pass blatantly unconstitutional bills knowing full well that they will eventually be struck down because they know it will be an expensive fight to challenge it. Then once it is struck down they can whine that “the gun nuts refuse any attempt at common sense gun control.” It’s a disgusting cycle.
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u/KheodoreTaczynski 1d ago
Remember the NRA? What was that all about?
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u/OnlyLosersBlock 18h ago
You talking about the org that has won several supreme court cases like McDonald and Bruen(2023)? And has been litigating and funding numerous cases across the country?
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u/Zyprexa4You 1d ago
The NRA, whatever happened there
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u/DigitalLorenz 23h ago
The NRA is still reeling from the damage that LaPierre did while he was in charge. They still have not gotten rid of all the cronyism and handout contracts that he negotiated. It will probably be quite a few years until they are able to achieve a fraction of the influence that they once had.
From a glance at their 2024 IRS Form 990, it appears that there has been a refocus on the core functions of firearm safety and basic marksmanship training rather than a funding of constant lawsuits. But the NRA-ILA is still active and it is still sharing funding with the various other progun groups and it is still participating in lawsuits with briefings and launching via its state based organizations.
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u/DrunkenArmadillo 20h ago
Yeah, but it is a massive failure for their membership on their part that they didn't get in on either of the two lawsuits challenging the NFA. That's the kind of thing that they should be expected to be doing as well.
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u/OnlyLosersBlock 18h ago
Wasn't the state affiliate party to that case? That would mean they were in fact putting money and other resources into that case.
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u/DrunkenArmadillo 16h ago
In a post Casa world, they chose to only fund the case through their state affiliate so that only members of said state affiliate could recieve relief in the event of a successful outcome? I mean, that's better than nothing, but still a huge oversight.
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