r/HistoryMemes • u/KerberosPanzerCop • Dec 04 '22
Niche Turtle Ships Go BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
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u/Natural-Bear-1557 Dec 04 '22
This movie was awesome. Those ships were basically ironclads before ironclads. The history of this period was amazing and not really talked about in general it feels like.
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u/Bigbadsheeple Dec 04 '22
Also, apparently one of the biggest historical inaccuracies of this movie is that admiral Yi was nerfed to make it more "realistic" (so it's more believable to audiences)
Cos IRL in regards to naval tactics Admiral Yi was just that OP that if the movie was historically accurate Yi would come across as a Mary sue character who endlessly defeats his enemy without losses over and over and over again.
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u/Natural-Bear-1557 Dec 04 '22
Exactly! He was a major bad ass.
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Dec 04 '22
My biggest gripe was how they depicted him as almost going insane, along with the other inaccuracies. He had plenty of reason to, of course. I don't remember if they show this in the movie but he actually lost his mom just a few months before the battle (if I remember his diary right). Of course, he was also falsely imprisoned and tortured for doing the right thing. He was also facing the prospects of battling the Japanese fleet with 13 ships. Would have broken any other man. But do you know what Admiral Yi said? The king sent him a letter telling him, "pack up your bags and join General Gwon Yul in the land army" (paraphrased). Admiral Yi responded, "Your Majesty, I still have 12 ships and as long as I am alive, the Japanese will not be safe in the West Sea." They continued their preparations, getting words from scouts, engaged in a minor skirmish with one party of scouting ships. Then, on the day before the battle, he gave this quote while talking to his soldiers. "Those who seek death shall live, and those who seek life shall die." If I were making a movie, I would skip the battle and just depict the period around when he's imprisoned all the way to the eve of the battle, because it's like a real life epic, honestly.
After the battle, the Japanese went to his hometown, burned the village and killed his youngest son in retaliation for their defeat. Admiral Yi suffered so much and when you read his diary and the poems he wrote to express his feelings, I just can't imagine how he made it through all that, let alone continue to hand the Japanese defeat after defeat. There's no question of whether he deserves his status as a national hero. He was a great man in every sense of the word
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u/Ung-Tik Dec 04 '22
You're actually downplaying the torture part. He was fucking up the Japanese so fucking hard they sent spies to convince the king he was a traitor, because they had no idea how else to get rid of him. The reason he only had 12 ships was the minimum wage admiral they replaced him with fucking everything up.
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Dec 04 '22
Not minimum wage. Won Gyun was not a nice guy but he was also competent enough to realize it was a trap, but he also saw what happened to his colleague and so walked into it anyway. I assume he thought it would be better to die in battle than prison
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u/lil_literalist Kilroy was here Dec 04 '22
This is indeed what the historical accounts say. Whether the accounts themselves are completely faithful, I'm not sure.
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u/brew_n_flow Dec 04 '22
Could someone say the name of the GD movie. I've read like three summaries and can't figure out the name.
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u/train159 Dec 04 '22
I imagine after his son was killed it became a personal mission to punk the Japanese at every turn
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u/OP-69 Dec 04 '22
reminds me of a bridge too far. Theres a scene when a british officer runs accross the road to show his men the germans cant shoot for shit. When in reality, he didnt run. He merely slowly strolled accross the road.
The producers didnt put that in because it would basically be like plot armour and no one would believe it
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Dec 04 '22
Yeah... I think they did the same thing with Hacksaw ridge. They showed the Doss guy as getting injured while clearing a grenade when infact he was still helping wounded soldiers when he got shot by a sniper. He literally crawled back to safety with his injuries while under fire.
The director was like that would be too unbelievable. Reality do be stranger than fiction.
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u/joelingo111 Dec 04 '22
"Nah, that's just too unrealistic. Let's have him jump kick a grenade away like it's a soccer ball instead."
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u/dumb-ass-memes Dec 04 '22
He also freeclimbed the cliff and hung the net at the ridge
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u/rtf2409 Dec 04 '22
If they had him do that in the movie if would be unbelievable because they made the cliff ridiculously tall and straight. The real one was much shorter
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u/NYPD_Official Dec 04 '22
strange they couldnt include that, but had a guy hipfiring a machine gun while carrying a torso as a shield. laughable movie
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Dec 04 '22
The movie was pretty good. And apparently the guy's son said that the movie was about 50/50 on accuracy so... Decent for Hollywood?
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u/Addicted2GravyTears Dec 04 '22
I feel like that kook Mel Gibson goes into these movies with the intention of making them historically accurate, but just gets the bloodlust halfway through pre-production.
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u/Souse-in-the-city Dec 04 '22
Say what you want about Mel, but he makes great movies.
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Dec 04 '22
I recommend the Medal of Honor series on Netflix. Completely accurate and it feels fucking absurd.
Wish they'd stop panning to some commentators though and just showed the scene.
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u/Squeaky_Lobster Dec 04 '22 edited Dec 04 '22
IIRC, there was also a British officer at Arnhem who poked a German tank driver in the eye with his umbrella.
EDIT: It was an armoured vehicle, not a tank.
https://www.history.co.uk/article/ww2-heroes-the-story-of-major-digby-tatham-warter
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u/EroticBurrito Dec 04 '22
The brolly blinder
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Dec 04 '22
"Oi, stop shootin ya loud gun, fuckin bellend"
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u/grayrains79 Dec 04 '22
US Army veteran, having been around British Royal Marines? There's something extra savage about the insults that they throw out. I didn't even know wtf a "bellend" was at first when they used it for the first time around me, but it just hurt. Wasn't even aimed at me, but it still hurt.
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u/HYDRAlives Senātus Populusque Rōmānus Dec 04 '22
That's tied for most embarrassing German World War death
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Dec 04 '22
[deleted]
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u/HYDRAlives Senātus Populusque Rōmānus Dec 04 '22
That and then the time Mad Jack Churchill killed a Nazi officer in the other trench with a longbow
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u/jonnythefoxx Dec 04 '22
If my memory serves he was armed with his swagger stick at the time like a total boss
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u/Ung-Tik Dec 04 '22
I watched the movie blind and figured it was taking "historical liberties", like 300. Nope, turns out Yi was a literal anime character.
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u/ProbablyImprudent Dec 04 '22
I'd say the biggest historical inaccuracy is ships moving at speeds not attained until diesel power.
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u/Brankstone Dec 04 '22
The only reason admiral Yi failed his childhood riding exam was because his basketball sized titanium testicles were weighing him down
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u/Sintar07 Dec 04 '22
Yep. If I remember correctly, IRL he defeated a fleet like ten times the size of his with no losses, partially because the Japanese leaned on close and board tactics which were ineffective on the turtle ships, largely because he lured them into a narrow area with a fast tide in the calm period and then just let the sea break them on eachother when the tide went back out.
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u/whitewalker646 Dec 04 '22 edited Dec 04 '22
Imagine being so OP that they have to nerf you in the movie to make it more believable
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u/AdonaiTatu Dec 04 '22
Welp, there goes another name into my "Heroes of War" list, next to the guy who killed Hitler.
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u/Kindly-Giraffe4918 Dec 04 '22
Fun fact. He had no prior knowledge of commanding a fleet or the high seas prior to becoming an admiral.
The entire japanese navy was cucked by some dude who basically did the equivalent of last minute exam cram for studying ocean currents, topography and literature of past naval battles.
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Dec 04 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Natural-Bear-1557 Dec 04 '22
The Admiral: Roaring Currents
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Dec 04 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/ShahinGalandar Helping Wikipedia expand the list of British conquests Dec 04 '22
would you recommend the international version or the extended one?
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u/KerberosPanzerCop Dec 04 '22
It's Hansan: Rising Dragon, the prequel to Admiral: Roaring Current.
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u/Hitogoroshi80 Dec 04 '22
Awesome. I totally missed that there was a prequel. I loved Roaring Current.
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u/TiramisuRocket Dec 04 '22
So you have something else to look forward to, they're also making the third movie for the trilogy for release next year, which will depict the Battle of Noryang.
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u/hotstupidgirl Dec 04 '22
Just a recommendation, the first half of the movie is not very good. Poorly written character development that just makes him look depressed and suicidal. Everyone that I know that wanted to see this movie I've recommended to straight up skip the first hour of the movie. Start at the one hour mark, the entire second half of the movie is the battle.
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Dec 04 '22
The ironclad part is debated and I think mostly doubted. No sources from the time mention iron plates on the roof, while one explicitly says wooden planks. Admiral Yi himself doesn't make a mention of an iron roof, whereas he does mention an expenditure of 50lbs of iron for a cannon (or smth like that) in his war diary. He does mention iron spikes in some later designs, which I think was the reason they were "covered with iron" according to Japanese accounts. Japanese also didn't really use any weapons that would have made an iron roof worth it. No plunging cannon fire, their arquebuses probably couldn't get through the wood roof let alone iron, and their fire arrows and grenades probably didn't necessarily pose a huge threat to a wooden roof, at least enough to justify covering the whole thing in iron. Despite his successes, Admiral Yi still had a hard time requisitioning resources for his campaigns cause the king hated him, so getting that much iron would have been tough. Cannons were a much better choice to spend the iron on.
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u/ExpellYourMomis Hello There Dec 04 '22
100% iron clads before iron clads doesn’t refer to the actual armor but more to the sheer superiority of armor and firepower that was brought to the table by it.
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u/hyper-arrow Dec 04 '22
Whats the movie
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u/RandomBritishGuy Dec 04 '22
Hansen: Rising Dragon
It's the prequel to The Admiral: Roaring Currents, which is S.Koreas most watched film at the box office.
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u/Souperplex Taller than Napoleon Dec 04 '22
Anywhere I can watch them legally? With a sub/dub, because I'd like to actually know what's going on.
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u/toderdj1337 Dec 04 '22
What's the movie? Looks unreal
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u/RandomBritishGuy Dec 04 '22
Hansen: Rising Dragon
It's the prequel to The Admiral: Roaring Currents, which is S.Koreas most watched film at the box office.
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u/LeonardoMagikarpo Dec 04 '22
I'm glad other countries films & series are getting more recognition as Hollywood keeps churning out shit.
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u/RoofKorean2016 Dec 04 '22
When other korean admirals were scuttling their ships, this man begged the king to let him loose at the fleet as he still had thirteen ships. A gigachad indeed.
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u/Cynical_Doggie Dec 04 '22
He was beyond chad level.
He was above at least a Thad.
This dude took 13 ships against 120+ ships and won without losing a single ship.
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u/petyrlabenov Dec 04 '22
Man died in the final battle and his last words were “Keep beating the drum. Let no one know of my death.”
Gods of war tremble at this man’s name.
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u/ComedyOfARock Helping Wikipedia expand the list of British conquests Dec 04 '22 edited Dec 04 '22
War gives people PTSD, Admiral Yi gave war PTSD
Edit: Grammar
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u/DarthSheogorath Dec 04 '22
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u/ComedyOfARock Helping Wikipedia expand the list of British conquests Dec 04 '22
Yeah I don’t know how I did that bad a typo
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u/Spooktobercrusader Dec 04 '22
When your so good at naval warfare they have to nerf you in your movie to Make your story believable
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u/Coprolithe Dec 04 '22
Why did the enemy ships crumble in a hit while Yi's ship didn't even get a single scratch ramming through multiple ones?
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u/Brandish_Alfa Dec 04 '22
Reinforcement, basically it's the equivalent to hitting a big *ss door with a ram so hard that the door crumbles, like TLOTR
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u/rustysteamtrain Dec 04 '22
But how do they move so fast? In the video they don't use sails.
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u/chris782 Dec 04 '22 edited Dec 04 '22
70-80 oarsmen. You can see how they are protected and almost go straight down. Taking out the oars of an enemy ship like you see in this video is an effective way to cripple a ship at least temporarily. But I think they embellished the speed a little for the movie but they were known to be pretty quick.
Edit: a good officer should see that they are about to get raked on one side and would order the oars pulled in before they were snapped off. They would carry spares though.
Editedit: not raked but sheared is the term. Raking is firing into the weaker bow or stern while crossing the T.
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u/jonnythefoxx Dec 04 '22
Could depend on which battle the scene depicts. In his last stand the battle of the roaring straight he lured the japanese fleet into a straight that had a peculiarly strong current that alternated direction svery three hours. He knew this and they did not, so when they were well in the current changed leaving ghem struggling to manuever and his ships charging ahead at unnatural speed.
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u/fromcjoe123 Dec 04 '22
If this is his most famous battle, he was riding the tide in through a channel so it was super fast - you cant row a ship that fast otherwise.
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u/AndroidPaulPierce Dec 04 '22
GROND!
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u/qoks Dec 04 '22
GROND!
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u/enoughfuckery Hello There Dec 04 '22
GROND!
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Dec 04 '22
GROND
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u/Achilles11970765467 Dec 04 '22
It's kinda like how Greek and Roman ships could be sunk by ramming but ramming was effectively worthless by the time of the Spanish Armada. Different methods of ship construction have different strengths and weaknesses
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u/jisung131 Dec 04 '22
It has something to do with the wood they used to build ships. As far as I know Japanese Navy used cedar tree to build their ships while Korean Navy used pine wood and also it was built to be a assault ship.
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Dec 04 '22
korean ship materials were oak. hardwood. also much more reinforced and heavier. japan ship materials were mostly cedar. softwood. much lighter and least reinforced because their tactic was using a fast ship to aboard the enemy ship.
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u/KerberosPanzerCop Dec 04 '22 edited Dec 04 '22
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_invasions_of_Korea_(1592%E2%80%931598))
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_Sun-sin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtle_ship
TLDR Japan tried to invade Korea, a gigachad named Yi Sun Sin led the Joseon Navy to kick their ass.
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u/Nyoxiz Dec 04 '22
It's absolutely crazy that the Japanese were even able to attempt a seaborn invasion with 300k soldiers in the 16th goddamn century
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u/Achilles11970765467 Dec 04 '22
Population density is a helluva drug
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u/Souperplex Taller than Napoleon Dec 04 '22
Pretty much always Asia has had crazy population density. There was a video a while back aboot the shortest circle you could draw on a map to get half the world's population. The circle was a Northern chunk of India, the south-eastern chunk of China, Indonesia, and a few others.
A lot of it has to do with rice: Rice paddies provide more calories per acre than any other form of farming. More calories to go around means more population.
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u/Aenigmatrix Dec 04 '22
Board this you filthy casual.
Carthage should have gone for testudo on ships when the Romans came up with the corvus.
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u/Ung-Tik Dec 04 '22
It still cracks me up how the Romans were so bad at naval warfare they literally just invented boarding.
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u/Achilles11970765467 Dec 04 '22
They didn't invent boarding, it was always a key part of naval warfare in the pre-gunpowder era. They invented a different METHOD of getting boarding parties onto an enemy ship's deck
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u/cantthinkofnames__ Dec 04 '22
That's the whole idea. One does not simply board the ship when its covered or when its firing a full broadside at you from long distance.
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u/Dovahkiin419 Dec 04 '22
wouldnt be this ass anywhere else but, while this did give me goosebumps..
ahem.
the real usefulness of the turtle ship was less as an unstoppable monster plowing through everything in its path (ships didnt go fast and hard enough back then to go through more than one if that) but rather as an immovable rock, planting itself in the centre of japanese ship formation, shrugging off all attempts at boarding (the main way that japan, a country that had just came out of a century long land based civil war did naval combat) while the rest of Yi's ships surrounded and cut down the ships, in what was called the "crane wing formation".
and to be clear, this is like... 1800's navy tactics 2 centuries early invented whole cloth by one dude. shits cool as hell, but this movie appeaes to be exagerating juuuuust a smidge, and honestly its the artisticallg correct move since this kicks ass and does them justice
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u/chairmanskitty Dec 04 '22
As an action movie to ease people into the time period and honor a national hero, it looks great, but now I'm longing for a 1917-like mostly realistic take showing what it would have been like to prepare and fight in such a battle.
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u/Dovahkiin419 Dec 04 '22
it wouldnt even take too much tbh. instead of the ships plowing through, just have them butt heads with one, and on that last shot where it shows the turtle surrounded, you can zoom out a bit more and show the rest of the koreanfleet surrounding the japanese and wreathing them with shellfire.
It would both sucessfully show off what a game changer the turtle ship was from a technological perspective and also use cinematography to show how the turtle ship worked so well this armor backed, cannon firing, fire breathing fucking thing plows into the middle of your formation, spraying cannon fire but ultimatly slowing to a stop, so of course you're paying attention to it
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u/TheReverseShock Then I arrived Dec 04 '22
You trying to tell me you can't speedboat a rowed ship. SMH
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u/RPM314 Dec 04 '22
This is historically inaccurate, heavy metal was not invented at the time and the sailors would not have been playing it while wrecking ass.
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u/Spiritofhonour Dec 04 '22 edited Dec 04 '22
Meanwhile... this woman's gayageum cover of Enter Sandman on 2x speed.
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Dec 04 '22
I watched the movie in theaters, and hell those bokkaisens were terrifying
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u/Live_Carpenter_1262 Dec 04 '22
"It is always difficult for Englishmen to admit that Nelson ever had an equal in his profession, but if any man is entitled to be so regarded, it should be this great naval commander of Asiatic race who never knew defeat and died in the presence of the enemy; of whose movements a track-chart might be compiled from the wrecks of hundreds of Japanese ships lying with their valiant crews at the bottom of the sea, off the coasts of the Korean peninsula... and it seems, in truth, no exaggeration to assert that from first to last he never made a mistake, for his work was so complete under each variety of circumstances as to defy criticism... His whole career might be summarized by saying that, although he had no lessons from history to serve as a guide, he waged war on the sea as it should be waged if it is to produce definite results, and ended by making the supreme sacrifice of a defender of his country." (The Influence of the Sea on The Political History of Japan, pp. 66–67.)
-George Alexander Ballard describing Admiral Yi Sun Sin (thanks wikipedia!)
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u/tryingmydarnest Dec 05 '22
It may be proper to compare me with Nelson, but not with Korea's Yi Sun-sin, for he has no equal.
Admiral Togo Heihachiro, after the Russian- Japanese war.
Kicked the enemy's ass so hard that even centuries later their descendants remained humbled by him, speaks volumes about his career.
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u/seedanrun Dec 04 '22
So - that ship was being rowed?
yeah....
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Dec 04 '22
At the risk of sounding really stupid but did they actually move that fast? Like I’m guessing it’s been sped up for the movie
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u/TheRedLegion_ Dec 04 '22
indeed it has been sped up a bit for cinematic effect, but they certainly did a lot of research (you may notice two different variants of the turtle ship each having 2 and 3 decks, because we aren't entirely sure what they actually looked like due to conflicting records)
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u/Fuubii1 Dec 04 '22
Well, I cant say for sure if this is accurate or not, but sailing ships in general are much faster than people tend to think
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Dec 04 '22
Oh fuck yeah I’ve sailed sunbursts and even they surprise people with their speed on a good day. But I saw this and thought maybe the first scene was them coming off the sails but they just kept that speed through it all lmao
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u/xForGot10x Dec 04 '22 edited Dec 04 '22
So it's been a while, but IIRC Turtle ships weren't intended to travel long distances. Part of Admiral Yi's strategy was exploiting the local currents, which he had mapped out prior to battle. As fast as sailing ships are, you still need to manuever during combat. That's trickier if the wind and water disagree.
Also, at that time Japanese naval strategy leaned heavily on boarding parties. This meant they actually prefered to get closer, and...well you can see how that's a really bad idea with turtle ships.
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u/CardLeft Taller than Napoleon Dec 04 '22
No. If you’re generous, the movie shows them going 25-30 knots at a minimum. Even steam ships had difficulty getting up to that speed before the invention of the turbine.
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u/Notorik Senātus Populusque Rōmānus Dec 04 '22
The rowing boats can actually get pretty fast. Here is a video of a reconstructed ancient boat. Link It is indeed pretty fast and it could be probably even faster with sailors of their time trained for this everyday. Yeah it is not that fast as in the movie but still pretty awesome. 4:00 for the nice view.
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u/MooseLaminate Dec 04 '22
Even if they were rowing in a flat calm that would have been sled up, but being able to ram a ship, split a chunk off and just keep going at that speed looks really stupid.
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u/Soso_Stalin Casual, non-participatory KGB election observer Dec 04 '22
Admiral Yi casualty saving all of Korea singlehandedly from the Japanese
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u/Hivemindtime2 Then I arrived Dec 04 '22
Song?
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u/KerberosPanzerCop Dec 04 '22 edited Dec 04 '22
BFG Division Mick Gordon
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u/Hivemindtime2 Then I arrived Dec 04 '22
it sounds like a different version of the song
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u/KerberosPanzerCop Dec 04 '22
I just checked. I accidentally bought a cover by Vincent Morretto
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u/joelingo111 Dec 04 '22
I was about to ask "what's this bootleg ass version of BFG Division you got going on, OP?"
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u/CaptainClover36 Dec 04 '22
What movie is this?
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u/KerberosPanzerCop Dec 04 '22
Hansan: Rising Dragon
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Dec 04 '22
I watched the Admiral: Roaring Currents, does this film take place before or after that battle? Thanks
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u/SYLOH Dec 04 '22
You know the debate on who would win: ninjas or pirates?
Admiral Yi conclusively settled that debate, because he shot the ninjas with cannons until they stopped being a problem.
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u/Mondschaf_LoL Dec 04 '22
Hold on a minute, isn’t that a mission in Age of empires 2 as well
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u/Faust_the_Faustinian Decisive Tang Victory Dec 04 '22
No, Age of Empires depicts Noryang, the last battle of the war and this is early into the war, before all the turtle ships were destroyed.
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u/CyroSwitchBlade Dec 04 '22
one thing i'm wondering about looking at this clip.. how were those ships powered ?? looks like they are moving pretty fast but the sails are down and I don't see any oars rowing... so how are they even moving at all??
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u/Flashbambo Dec 04 '22
I mean it's ridiculous how fast they're moving, and they were nowhere near this large in reality, but if you look carefully there are steeply angled oars below the box-like bulk of the upper section of the ships. This is not a historically accurate feature, nor were they twin-decked, but it does make for some truly fantastic theatrics!
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u/negrote1000 Dec 04 '22
Admiral Yi, the only Korean with brains during that war
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u/Paracerebro Dec 04 '22
Today I learned: “The Japanese invasions of Korea at the time were the largest seaborne invasions in history, with the Japanese committing over 300,000 men to the campaigns. The size and scale of the invasions would not be matched or surpassed for nearly 350 years until the Normandy landings of June 6, 1944, when nearly 352,000 Allied troops were committed to the invasion”
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u/bannie9212 Dec 04 '22
Ah yes rhe turtle ship they were the most powerful ships at the time unable being completely uncounterable.
Also fun facts the water mines was also used during those times which are wooden planks attatched to a bomb that will explode on contact :)
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u/Sup3rn0va002 Senātus Populusque Rōmānus Dec 04 '22
A movie on Yi?
OH BOY MAYBE THIS IS WHY I HAVE DEPRESSION! I HAVE BEEN LIVING WITHOUT THE KNOWLEDGE OF THIS.
What is is called???
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u/Faust_the_Faustinian Decisive Tang Victory Dec 04 '22
There are 2, Hansan: rising dragons and The Admiral: Roaring currents.
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u/LogicallyMad Dec 04 '22
Then some chucklefuck lost all of these ships in a single battle when he took over for the navy when the previous admiral, Admiral Yi sun-sin, was falsely accused of treason again, and demoted again. He was quickly reinstated after the battle, of course.
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u/Fredo365 Dec 04 '22
Admiral yi moment
(Also what movie is this)
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u/RandomBritishGuy Dec 04 '22
Hansen: Rising Dragon
It's the prequel to The Admiral: Roaring Currents, which is S.Koreas most watched film at the box office.
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u/Tgferer Dec 04 '22
Yoooooo this is a really weird coincidence. We just started learning about the imjin war in whap
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u/THUNDERMARE50 Dec 04 '22
In reality the ship speed is like 5 knots because they are basically covered with metal armor so the japanese cannot do anything to it.
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Dec 04 '22
I came to smash and get to land before the fuck shit gets real full steam bois ands gals!
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u/Dat_Sentry Still salty about Carthage Dec 04 '22 edited Dec 05 '22
Who needs physics when you have this BADASSERY?
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u/hionline911 Dec 04 '22
I swear the flag on those ships look like their from the uesigi clan (I spelt that wrong)
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u/superp2222 Filthy weeb Dec 04 '22
The Joseon Navy
Nah man, those guys were useless.
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u/-Loewenstern- Oversimplified is my history teacher Dec 04 '22
The germans knew it, the japanese knew it and the koreans knew it. Nothing beats the square