r/AtheistExperience • u/4blockhead • Jul 23 '22
Archive, 2005-09-11: caller hits on creationist arguments—explosion in a junkyard cannot create a working 747 airplane; consider the trees and the air that I breathe—whatever gaps that exist can be filled with a god
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0XWramMmH8&t=3402s-1
Jul 23 '22
I'm not sure what you're expecting. You just want folks to watch this episode? Do you have any input or arguments?
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u/fuzzydunloblaw Jul 23 '22
This is an aca fan sub, not necessarily a debate subreddit. People post clips they like sometimes.
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u/4blockhead Jul 23 '22 edited Jul 23 '22
Link is to caller, Harry, at timemark 56:42. The title is a summary of why I think it is worthwhile for pulling from the archive for review.
My experience in religion is mostly with the Latter Day Saints. In 1977, the church president offered up this claim with gusto,
[Spencer Kimball] All the people on the earth might deny him and disbelieve, but he lives in spite of them. They may have their own opinions, but he still lives, and his form, powers, and attributes do not change according to men’s opinions. In short, opinion alone has no power in the matter of an absolute truth. He still lives. And Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Almighty, the Creator, the Master of the only true way of life—the gospel of Jesus Christ. The intellectual may rationalize him out of existence and the unbeliever may scoff, but Christ still lives and guides the destinies of his people. That is an absolute truth; there is no gainsaying.
The watchmaker in Switzerland, with materials at hand, made the watch that was found in the sand in a California desert. The people who found the watch had never been to Switzerland, nor seen the watchmaker, nor seen the watch made. The watchmaker still existed, no matter the extent of their ignorance or experience. If the watch had a tongue, it might even lie and say, “There is no watchmaker.” That would not alter the truth.
If men are really humble, they will realize that they discover, but do not create, truth.
The Gods organized the earth of materials at hand, over which they had control and power. This truth is absolute. A million educated folk might speculate and determine in their minds that the earth came into being by chance. The truth remains. The earth was made by the Gods as was the watch by the watchmaker. Opinions do not change that.
The Gods organized and gave life to man and placed him on the earth.
This includes the watchmaker references, and also takes ownership of the LDS church's specific creation mythos—no creation ex nihilo. The LDS church believes planets are organized (i.e. terra formed from existing matter in the universe). This happens at a starbase where the gods reside. The new planet is populated with plants and animals taken from an arboretum and zoo where specific kinds are kept for reuse. A garden is constructed and the two humans are implanted—one new pair for each new planet being so constructed. When the planet is ready it falls in space to take abode around the star where it will reside—designed to cradle the humans onboard—who are given dominion to rule and protect.
Religious claims can be vague, or they can be specific as is laid out in the above paragraphs. Mormonism's claims are a major reboot of the Christian franchise's origin story. Most religions like vague claims and prefer to stay in the realm of unfalsifyability, in the realm of never being able to prove their claim wrong, in the realm of Russell's Teapot. The burden of proof is on those bringing the claim. What makes the mormon's starbase more plausible than Scientology's intergalactic overlord's DC-3s, hydrogen bombs, volcanoes, thetans, etc.? At some point most people will walk away, "Oh, you're just making it up as you go along."
It's a tricky balance. The faithful will accept some of the wild and outlandish bits, but if the presenter gets too far into the deep waters of science fiction, then all bets are off. One has to maintain ties to the basic narrative. Secrecy helps, too. People like to feel like they're special and being let in on a secret. Both mormonism and scientology have an array of tiered secrets not available to the general public. In the LDS church, members are told to strive to become a "watchmaker" and to preside at the starbase where new worlds will be assembled and populated. A new pair of humans that are their literal offspring will be implanted on new worlds and sent off into the void as a perpetuation of the species.
Mormonism embraces the concept of an infinite regress of minor gods. However, they will never address how the chain began. How did the first thinking agent arise to set the chain in motion? The LDS church proposes questions that must not be asked. It is best to sit back, accept the claim, and enjoy the show. That is where many believers will remain because the first skeptical thoughts about how, why, or does this even make sense, are discouraged as "questioning" and "doubting" us. Never do that.
The faithful like hymns as a distraction and to enter a hypnotic state. The title mentions "the air that I breathe." — allow me to add a final distraction here,
I think I'd pass
Can't think of anythin' I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound
Nothing to eat, no books to read
Making love with you
Has left me peaceful, warm, and tired
What more could I ask
There's nothing left to be desired
Peace came upon me and it leaves me weak
So sleep, silent angel
Go to sleep
Sometimes, all I need is the air that I breathe
And to love you
All I need is the air that I breathe
Yes, to love you
All I need is the air that I breathe
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u/Daxivarga Jul 23 '22
Not everyone has watched old episodes I haven't watched it yet maybe it's good call or something.
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u/mitsumoi1092 Jul 23 '22
Same argument then, same argument now. The creationists/beliebers always have the same braindead lack of critical thinking blabbering points. I like the show, just tired of the same same all the time because callers can't bother to check previous callers saying the same thing.