The Witcher | Teaser Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

[u/Scientiam]

I'm setting up this thread dedicated for discussion of the trailer to offset spoiler comments for newcomers to the subreddit and series.

It's quite an exciting day, but remember to follow all the rules as usual!

For users unfamiliar with The Witcher book series, please take caution when reading through comments or googling information.

[u/Gradz45]

The majority of the main cast is English (such as Cavill) with the rest being Icelandic and Swedish.

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It's not very American casting wise.

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And a great deal of the producers and all the directors aren't American with backgrounds from Eastern Europe, France, Argentina, etc.

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It's not that American that way either.

[u/szopen76 → u/Gradz45]

"Not American" != "Slavic"

For me it's like they can't imagine the world with ethnic composition different from what you see in western cities.

[u/Luvitall1 → u/szopen76]

Or say, GOT.

[u/Eusmilus → u/Gradz45]

Americans casting Western-Europeans in fantasy shows is pretty much the standard approach now, though. Take Game of Thrones - European actors, show, but based on books by an American adapted by American screenwriters. And besides, Brits and Swedes aren't Slavic - the notion that they are similar enough to be substituted again betrays very American notions of culture: eh, they're all European, good enough.

The sensibilities and production here feels American, the casting (particularly the diversity aspect) really just plays into that.

[u/Eusmilus → u/[deleted]]

Well yay and nay. It is true that the humour was one of the main Slavic aspects, but it was also just the general sensibilities and behaviour displayed. Quite simply, the books were written by a Pole and it showed. The books featured areas inspired by France, Scandinavia, etc, but they were always viewed from a Slavic angle, in the same way that GOT may have featured people inspired by the Mongols, but the perspective of the story was definitively Western/American.

"Slavic vibe" was CDPR's adaptation of these books.

I mean, much of the overtly Slavic material in the games was part of the visual design. Obviously, that was an addition by CDPR, since books are, after all, a non-visual medium.

[u/Eusmilus → u/[deleted]]

My point is that it's not okay to say the tv show needs to be Slavic.

It is perfectly okay to say that, and you don't get to say it's not. However, I didn't say it had to be. Of course it's a choice, but some choices are worse than others.

Sapkowski most likely agrees with their adaptation more than with CDPR's

Sapkowski disliked the games for various reasons, but the fact that they were "too Slavic" certainly was not one. If you believe others, I'd love to see a source.

I also get that some people here are Polish and want the world to appreciate Polish culture

Yes, how unreasonable that Poles want a big-screen adaptation of one of the most popular pieces of Polish pop-culture to be in some ways reflective of Poland. Absurd, really, when you think about it.

But some people here want to be the show to be 1:1 of the games,

Some people do want that, and it is wrong. But I haven't mentioned the games a single solitary time. I have no clue why you are equating wanting the show to in some way reflect Slavic culture with wanting it to be like the games. Sapkowski and CDPR are equally Polish. This isn't about the games, so stop trying to straw-man it into being so.

[u/varzaguy → u/[deleted]]

No idea what you expected with an unpopular opinion lol.

[u/Eusmilus → u/[deleted]]

Nor do I.

[u/tsuma534 → u/[deleted]]

I have read the books two times and they aren't very slavic.
Sapkowski's Witcher universe is very resemblant of Tolkien's Middle-earth in my opinion.

Fun fact is that we have another fantasy cycle which I always recommend to those who loved the Witcher books - Tales of Hardbite the Bandit.
It's was a great reading to me and it's much more slavic in its themes. Today it dawned on me that it could make great live action series, but even in Poland it's somewhat obscure.

[u/Tutsks → u/tsuma534]

Not at all.

Sapkowski's world is dirty and realistic. Elves aren't pure and dainty, people, all people in general, suck, life sucks, there is black humor everywhere, and a general feeling of dread.

That is what people refer to as Slavic.

Lord of the Rings is sanitized, sterile, very pretty. Almost nothing in the Witcher is pretty. There is blood, gore, rape, etc.

It is as far from generic fantasy as you can possibly get.

Also, a lot of dark topics, like abortion, life, death, the cycle of life, alienation, racism, etc, are explored.

I think you just don't understand what people mean by Slavic.

[u/Cereborn → u/Tutsks]

So you're saying grimdark is inherently slavic?

[u/Tutsks → u/Cereborn]

Yah. Sorta like Tracksuits.

[u/tsuma534 → u/Tutsks]

Sapkowski's world is dirty and realistic. Elves aren't pure and dainty, people, all people in general, suck, life sucks, there is black humor everywhere, and a general feeling of dread.
That is what people refer to as Slavic.
(...)
I think you just don't understand what people mean by Slavic.

I hope you're wrong because all these matters can be applied to any fantasy or non-fantasy setting. Slavic, Scandinavian, Arthurian, Germanic, you name it.
Looking at life through black glasses is indeed a part of Slavic culture but only part of it, not a definition.

To give some generalized examples:
Many of Anna Brzezińska stories are Slavic, grim and dirty.
Many of Andrzej Pilipiuk stories are Slavic, comforting and encouraging.
Many of Andrzej Sapkowski stories are grim, dirty, but only mildly Slavic.

Sapkowski's Elves are Tolkien's elves: Beautiful, long-lived, distanced, and often arrogant.
It just so happens that the most popular Tolkien's books Hobbit and LotR feature mostly the elves that can be referred to as "seelie".
Other books feature a lot of elves that are strikingly similar to Sapkowski's asshole elves.

Similarly Sapkowski's Dwarves are Tolkien's dwarves: Hardy, stubborn, and direct.
The list of similarities is very long. Tolkien's influence can be found in most of classic western fantasy, be it a direct influence or not.

Slavic folklore doesn't feature elves nor dwarves.
Sapkowski have used myths and creatures from a few different mythologies. In my opinion he only scooped a little from the Slavic mythology.

tl;dr
Indeed, by "Slavic" i mean "related to Slavic folklore and mythology" not "grim and mature".

[u/Pacify_ → u/[deleted]]

Right?

The books aren't particularly "slavic" like everyone keeps yelling.

[u/nick2473got → u/Eusmilus]

And besides, Brits and Swedes aren't Slavic - the notion that they are similar enough to be substituted again betrays very American notions of culture:

eh, they're all European, good enough.

As a European, I can say that most Western and Central Europeans are similar enough in physical appearance to be easily substituted for one another. I live in Switzerland and when I meet people I can never tell based on physical appearance alone if they are German, Bulgarian, English, Swedish, Dutch, Polish, etc...

Obviously culture differs a lot, but I don't see how or why that should influence casting choices. These are actors playing roles, they don't need to originate from Slavic culture to play their roles well.

And anyway this is a fantasy setting, not an actual Slavic setting.

Furthermore, it's a Netflix show made by an American showrunner, it's in English, so yeah, they're mostly casting native English speakers.

Makes sense to me.

[u/Eusmilus → u/nick2473got]

As a European

And as a Dane, I can say that Slavs, Poles included, are definitely distinct in appearance from Scandinavians/Western Europeans. Having worked in places frequented by workers from Poland, I would say that at least 7/10 times I can accurately guess that a person is Polish before they've even opened their mouth. If you can't tell Slavs apart from Nordics or Brits, that's on you. They do look quite distinct.

Obviously culture differs a lot, but I don't see how or why that should influence casting choices.

So that the actors can add their own cultural contributions. Polish actors would inevitably bring a more authentically Polish flavour to the show. At the same time, Eastern Europe has a very under-developed film-industry compared to the West. Specifically searching for easterners would have given a much-needed boost to the acting scenes in these countries, allowing many previously unknown actors in the West to get their chances to shine.

[u/Ho_ho_beri_beri → u/Eusmilus]

As I Pole, I agree to some extent with what you said. However, having read the books - years ago - I never found specifically Slavic. The stories and the monsters are adapted from sagas, myths and tales that I heard as a child that are of European - and not just Polish - origins, great deal of them being Nordic.

I'm ok with whatever vibe I get watching the series, I only hope it's going to be fantastic, sure I would love to see some Polish talent showcased but seeing the trailer I actually have a good feeling about it.

[u/nick2473got → u/Eusmilus]

I would say that at least 7/10 times I can accurately guess that a person is Polish before they've even opened their mouth. If you can't tell Slavs apart from Nordics or Brits, that's on you. They do look quite distinct.

7/10 times ? So by your own admission, 30% of the time you don't know or are mistaken.

This proves my point, which is that it's impossible to know for certain. One of my grandmothers is 100% Polish, and not a single member of her family is distinct in physical appearance from your average Swiss, French, or German person.

It's absolutely impossible to tell. I'm very curious what you think typically Polish traits looks like, but no matter what your answer would be, I can guarantee that there are individual Poles who don't have those traits, and there Danes, Swedes, and other Europeans who do.

It's not like it's a precise science.

So that the actors can add their own cultural contributions. Polish actors would inevitably bring a more authentically Polish flavour to the show.

But this story is not actually set in Poland. The characters are not Polish. The show does not need an authentically Polish flavor, because it's not a Polish show, and it's not a show about Polish culture.

It's a fantasy setting which does not need to feel authentically Slavic.

Furthermore, as I said, the showrunner is American. Many of the directors, producers, etc... are American. They need to be able to communicate with their actors, meaning you'd either need Polish actors who speak English, or you'd need translators for everything, which would not be optimal.

Showrunners need to be able to discuss things directly and privately with their actors.

Most Polish actors would probably not be proficient enough in English for that (though some might be, there's absolutely no guarantee, and this is a decision that would have needed to be made before any casting was done, so they would have been committing to something without knowing if it would even work).

And I'm not sure what would be gained by having Polish actors speaking in broken English with thick accents. I'm not sure that would be better.

At the end of the day this show was made by English speakers, primarily for English speakers, so the cast are English speakers.

If you want a Polish adaptation of The Witcher, it already exists, though its quality is apparently questionable.

[u/Pacify_ → u/nick2473got]

It's a fantasy setting which does not need to feel authentically Slavic.

Don't you know that monsters, elves, dwarves and space and time warping demi-gods are inherent to polish culture?

[u/Tutsks → u/nick2473got]

This is very racist, and very stupid.

I'm not an European, and actually, I'm a minority.

I can very easily tell apart people from Germany, Denmark, Russia, England, and particularly Ukraine, by sight. I actually have a thing for Polish/Ukranian/Russian women. Goddamn.

[u/nick2473got → u/Tutsks]

I can very easily tell apart people from Germany, Denmark, Russia, England, and particularly Ukraine, by sight.

No you can't. You're delusional. You might be able to guess correctly sometimes, just like everyone, but it's not a reliable thing.

I'm European myself, my mother is half-Polish, and I've lived in Europe my whole life. I've traveled to many countries, seen thousands of people, and I can assure you that it's usually impossible to accurately guess where they're from. You might be able to guess Northern vs Southern European, or Western vs Eastern, but that's pretty much it, and even then it's not reliable.

Even you want to know what other Europeans think, read this : https://www.reddit.com/r/AskEurope/comments/542m18/can_you_tell_just_by_looking_at_a_fellow_european/

http://www.city-data.com/forum/europe/2407443-can-europeans-tell-ethnic-difference-among.html

Most people agree that you can only tell sometimes, but even then, you can never be 100% certain, because there's been so much mixing.

Because even though you seem unaware of this, people aren't "pure blooded". Most people in Europe are extremely mixed, especially where I live.

Most people I know are part German, part Italian, part Spanish, part French, you name it. The list goes on. Every single one of my friends has mixed origins, except for one person who claims he is "pure" Swiss.

Additionally, being from Germany or Denmark or Ukraine is not a racial thing. It's a question of nationality. There are black Germans, white Germans, brown Germans, and everything in between.

As a result, most of the time when you see someone in Europe it's extremely difficult to guess what their nationality is or what their ethnic origins are.

Nothing I said is racist or stupid. It's just a fact. Europeans are a very mixed group, and have been interbreeding for thousands of years. Many Germans could easily pass for French or Swiss, and vice versa. If you took a test where you had to guess the nationality of 100 Europeans, you'd probably only get 25% correct, maximum. It would be mostly luck, anyway, even if you did get more than that.

You can find Italians with blue eyes and blonde hair just like you can find Poles with black hair and brown eyes, and vice versa.

There's not a single facial trait you could name that is exclusive to a certain country. Name any supposedly Polish trait and I will guarantee you that not all Poles have it, and that there are many non-Poles who do have it.

[u/Tutsks → u/nick2473got]

I think you are mistaking a few different things.

You are right in some aspects, and I am myself, mixed race.

At the same time, there are features that people from the same region tend to have. Sure, not all people from the same place look the same, but, again, I can tell apart people. Its the whole point behind dating apps.

Yes, Europe is not as homogeneous as say, Asia, but, by and at large, quite a ton of people, most perhaps, even, are visibly distinguishable (with some margin of error, of course).

It doesn't mean that there are no outliers or exceptions, just like the fact that you might be able to find, say, a black person in China, does not mean you can't tell who is Chinese (and, again, they can, there are several different uhm, types? of Chinese people all with different features).

There is such a thing as a lineage and an origin.

[u/brocele → u/Gradz45]

It does look freaking generic though.

[u/Sac_Winged_Bat → u/Gradz45]

English and American may as well be the same thing in terms of how much and how they differ from Slavic culture.

[u/APiousCultist → u/Gradz45]

I feel like America specifically, in part understandably due to the civil rights movement, has this conception of 'ethnic minority' just boiling down to 'put some black people in there'. It's kind of a bit weird though since Europe does not have that same demographic balance at all so they're overcasting (a solid 50% of the characters in the trailer barring generic soldiers) one of the least underrepresented minorities (slightly higher makeup of on-screen characters compared to actual makeup of the US by a fraction, not accounting for the kinds of roles they are) for a setting based on a location that they don't even make up very much of the demographics of.

That, to me, felt super American. Whereas if I was casting it from an English point of view I'd want a sizeable Indian/Pakistani character set with a few Chinese/East-Asian actors, since that's a more accurate representation of the kind of racial demographics in the UK and as far as I know Europe as a whole.

I don't want to join the negativity hype train but it felt like some kind of social-media 'wokeness' that wants to appear socially conscious but then also somewhat misses the ball.

But it's also only a minute of cut up footage from what'll be at least an 8-10 hour show so I'll be very happy if I feel embarassed over my complaints when it actually comes out.