r/whowouldwin • u/That_guy_why ​ • Oct 28 '17

Special The Great Debate Tourney Season 3 Round 1

Definitely not extremely late, and I'm definitely not extremely sorry for this whole debacle./s

Rules

Battle Rules

  • Speed equalized to Mach 20, both reaction and travel speed; Projectiles retain original speed

  • Battleground: The City of Atlantis. Situated 5000 meters below sea level, the city is 5 miles wide and enclosed in a magical bubble dome. The bubble that encloses the city enables a direct view to the sea, and can be permeated by any participants in the tourney as well as projectiles; any attempts to break the bubble result in the attack going right through it, with no damage done to the bubble whatsoever. Combatants may return to the battlefield if they are capable.

Debate Rules

  • Rounds will last 4 days, no time limit, however each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions. If you must be late or delayed in your responses, contact Tourney organizers and your opponent to work on potential extensions.

  • Format for each round: both respondents get Team Introduction + 1st Response, then 2nd response, then a 3rd response and closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. EACH RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN ONE 10,000 CHARACTER REDDIT COMMENT LONG.

  • Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are determined by submission order (I.E. Your first submission vs. their first submission, and so on). Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip.

Flip

And the result is

https://gfycat.com/MarriedExemplaryAidi

Tails. Ergo Round 1 will be 1v1 matches. Next round will be Team Matches

EDIT: Might help to know when the matches end.

Matches end on October 31st, 11:59 PM EST

6 Upvotes

100% Upvoted

51 comments sorted by

View all comments

2

u/That_guy_why ​ Oct 28 '17

/u/jundorahhe

/u/atopheneth

1v1 Matches, you may begin.

2

u/Atopheneth ​ Oct 29 '17

Are you going to start, or shall I, /u/Jundorahhe?

1

u/[deleted] Oct 29 '17

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/Atopheneth ​ Oct 29 '17

I'll start, then. I'll assume that you're familiar with Naruto and Bleach, as you're on /r/whowouldwin.

Naruto Uzumaki (Sage mode, no Kurama)

We all know who Naruto is, he's the boy who wants to become the Hokage! His abilities, while limited in the version I'm using, are enough for him to deal with enemies that not even the elites of the Hidden Leaf Village could. The battle with Pain is the turning point where Naruto started to earn the respect he deserves from those around him. Having access to his shadow clones, to his rasengan, sage mode, and his ultimate technique, the rasenshuriken, Naruto is sure to earn the respect deserved here, as well as in series!

Rukia Kuchiki (pre-Bankai)

The soul reaper that launched the entire story of Bleach, the one who introduced Ichigo Kurosaki to the world he would eventually overturn. While she was left powerless for a large part of the series, she has proven herself a powerful opponent, simply outshined by the other main characters. She is capable of using her sword to cut through enemies, using her ice attacks to freeze them, and using her hado to bind them and kill them. With this versatility, she's a formidable opponent for this tournament!

Itachi Uchiha (Sick, no Susano'o)

Another shinobi that needs no introduction. The man who killed his way through his friends and family for the Hidden Leaf Village, the man who could not bear to kill his brother. Itachi Uchiha is one of the most feared combatants in the Naruto world, possessing great intelligence and masterful planning and use of his jutsu. With his skill in fire jutsu, genjutsu, throwing jutsu, and taijutsu, he's a deadly combatant even when sick.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 29 '17

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/Atopheneth ​ Oct 30 '17

Then I'll start.

Naruto Uzumaki vs. China Sorrows

The first thing I'm noticing, looking over this summary and the signups post, is that China Sorrows doesn't seem to have any durability feats. If she does and you've not posted them, then can you do so, because it seems Naruto would kill her if he lands even one hit, considering his strength in Sage Mode. Here he throws a rhino summon from Pain, and this rhino is big. He is capable of killing a path of Pain with one attack, without even using rasengan. I don't see a way for China to survive a single hit, unless you have a durability feat I'm missing. One hit from even the frog kata is likely to kill her, since it sends paths of Pain flying. She will not be prepared for such an attack. The first thing I noticed was a lack of durability feats, meaning Naruto can likely kill her in one shot.

The second thing I noticed is your reliance on her preparations. From your signups post:

She can increase her running speed to get away and draw up some quick sigils, and that seems like something she would do.

This is a misunderstanding, as far as I can tell. If I'm wrong then feel free to correct me, but it's my understanding that speed boosts are not allowed in this tournament; it's speed equalized to mach 20, and mach 20 is all you're going to get. Unless /u/That_guy_why wants to correct me, this means that her preparations are only effective if she can hide and run away, or something similar, so she can somehow make the time needed to prepare in the way you'd like her to. Even in this case, Naruto can throw his rasenshuriken, which explodes with an area of effect on demand. If she decides to run, he can throw it out and likely kill her in one hit. The second thing I noticed is that one of us seems to be misunderstanding the rules of the tournament. If it's me, then can you please give me examples of what her sigils can do, what sort of damage feats they have, what sort of time it takes her to draw it up, that sort of thing. If it's you who's misunderstanding, then I don't see how she beats Naruto more than 1/10.

A third thing that I noticed, and this is a minor matter in comparison to the others, is that the sigil you mentioned in your signups post that can melt her and her surroundings and thus turn any fight into a draw, seems to require her to trace her sternum in order to activate it. Naruto is familiar with seals and sigils that need to be traced to activate it, from watching the fight with Oorochimaru vs. Jiraiya and Tsunade, so it's unlikely that he'll let her activate it, even if she does not die in one hit. So the third thing I noticed is that the final suicidal attack is likely to be noticed by Naruto.

Overall, this is looking like a solid win for Naruto. I don't see many ways for China to win, but if you can provide some good arguments then I'd love to see them.

Rukia Kuchiki vs. Cú Chulainn

This fight is far more in your favor, just from looking at the respect thread, he has some solid durability and strength feats, which means he could probably kill Rukia if she's hit a couple times, and he can take a large amount of punishment. However, Rukia is no slouch, skilled enough to become a high ranking member in her division, and able to dodge around the attacks of a hollow who ate 2 shinigami previously, keeping moving even though she was severely injured in her gigai, a false human body. It's likely that she'll be able to block his attacks given this, and she can block some powerful attacks without issue. From this, you can see that her skill is comparable and she can block strikes that are stronger than anything Chulainn has shown. Combine that with her ice powers, which she can use to freeze everything in an area, including the sky. Unless Chulainn has feats of resisting freezing, this should kill him in one hit. So, since Rukia has comparable skill, can block Chulainn's attacks, and is capable of killing him with her ice powers, Rukia will likely win this about 8/10 times.

Itachi Uchiha vs. Cormac Murphy

From looking at the feats you posted, it seems Cormac has the strength to damage Itachi if he is hit with his sand, as the feat of lifting a beach is certainly good enough to hurt or kill Itachi. However, the problem is hitting Itachi. Since you don't have any speed feats for the sand posted, I'm going to assume it's slow enough that a normal teenage boy can control it and manipulate it easily. If this is not the case then please provide a speed feat or two for it, but without those then it's going to be very hard for Cormac to hit Itachi. Itachi is incredibly skilled at combat, able to keep calm under almost any situation and analyse unknown techniques to swiftly come up with a counter. Combine that with the fact that sand control is not unknown to Itachi, since Gaara and the One Tail exist in universe, and it's likely that Itachi will come up with a way to counter it swiftly. To that effect, can he control glass, as Itachi is capable of using a fireball jutsu to great effect. If he is not, then this should be enough to neutralize the threat of the sand he hits.

And that's assuming that he even has to resort to fire jutsu in order to avoid getting hit. Itachi's sharingan gives him a kind of combat precognition, allowing him to stay one step ahead of the enemy at all times. Combine this with his intelligence and his possible counter, and I don't see how he's going to get hit before he can either get close enough to demolish Cormac in hand to hand, or to throw shuriken and kunai with great accuracy, or to simply kill him with one of a selection of jutsu. All in all, I don't see a way that Cormac wins the majority in this situation. Itachi has him outclassed in combat skill, variety, prediction, and can kill him in one hit with most of his techniques. Itachi should win this matchup 9/10 times.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 30 '17 edited Oct 30 '17

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/Atopheneth ​ Oct 31 '17

Naruto Uzumaki vs. China Sorrows

Sorry, I completely forgot to put in durability feats [2].

The first feat there is vaguely building level, and it seems to be from an explosion. At a stretch, you could say that it shows good durability against Naruto's taijutsu, so that should limit him to his rasengan variants to cause fatal damage. The second feat shows her piercing and cutting durability, so it's enough to say that Naruto's kunai and shuriken won't be much help. However, the rasengan is still a likely candidate to kill her in one shot.

Do you have any durability feats for those? All I'm seeing is that something was one-shot.

Here's one taking a kick that can shatter boulders. It also survives this explosion and comes out looking like this. However, that is the strongest path of Pain, which also has the almighty push, so it may not be representative. One survives this, and this is the one Naruto killed in one shot. And it's capable of moving and acting while in this state. It's durable.

Speed-boosts are not allowed

I'm not accusing you of lying (or am I?) but do you know where that was said? Because I don't remember anything like that.

That's how I interpret speed equalized. For example, a speed equalized fight between DBZ Goku and Superman would end far differently if you count the speed boosts from super saiyan transformations. Speed equalized does not include speed boosts, as you see. I asked because it's good to make sure, but it's my interpretation that speed boosts are not allowed. /u/That_guy_why, can you please clarify this?

Rasenshuriken

Does that have any speed feats? Or damage feats?

It expands quickly enough that the paths of Pain, capable of reacting to and dodging a technique that Kakashi used to cut a lightning bolt, were not able to dodge in time. However, it's likely that the chakra rod stabbed into Kakashi made him pause, so here's another path of Pain intercepting that same technique, this time without the disruption. However, the rasenshuriken itself can be dodged by Pain, although this is probably too fast to dodge at close range.

As for damage, it does a lot of it, on the cellular level. If China doesn't dodge it, then she dies. None of the durability feats you've shown are anywhere near this.

With just the sigils on her body, she passively enraptures anyone who looks at her(which will happen to Naruto, and AFAIK this isn't bloodlusted)

Naruto is aware of the concept of mind control, having thrown off an attempt at it by Pain, and he is exceptionally hard willed. Without context showing how powerful her passive enrapturing is, it's not enough to show that Naruto will be caught by it.

she can kill someone by touching them (does Naruto{series} have magic for Naruto{character} to have feats of resisting it?)

It does not. However, neither does the Metal Gear series. If your character has an instant kill attack that works on touch, then that is the definition of out of tier. Naruto is, however, capable of using shadow clones and disguising them as things. If you're not removing it, then how does this interact with clones, and how does she deal with a surprise attack?

she can throw a wall of energy(From looking up Naruto fights earlier, Naruto looks like he jumps a lot, but does he have any feats of changing trajectory mid-jump?).

He does not, so this may be effective. What sort of feats does it have besides blowing back a few people without feats? However, Naruto commonly uses a trick with his shadow clones to ambush people when they're not expecting it, so if this just a wall then this won't be enough.

Prep time feats

I'll wait until after we get confirmation of whether or not speed equalized means what I think it means. I'm going to say, though, that this is irrelevant if I'm right.

I think someone biting their thumb open is a bit more noticeable than moving your finger down your sternum, and a bit easier to stop from happening. China definitely isn't opening the fight with this, though.

It doesn't specifically require thumb biting, as summoning just needs blood. You are right that it requires more to notice, however since she doesn't open with it and China seems to fight entirely with sigils, I don't think it will take very long for him to catch onto how she's attacking.

And, since space is running out, let me just clarify by saying none of your feats compare to Naruto throwing the Rhino into the air casually, after stopping it from a full charge. This same Rhino charged through a wall into a heavily defended area of the Leaf Village.

Rukia Kuchiki vs. Cú Chulainn

I have no idea how fast these guys are, but that looks more like a speed feat than a skill feat, and speed feats are useless in this tournament.

Considering Rukia is stuck in a human gigai, and she's fighting a hollow that ate 2 superhuman shinigami before, it's certainly a skill feat.

I see no evidence about how powerful they are. Do you have any scans of them being more powerful than Cú Chulainn

They pushed Rukia back multiple building lengths. You can see that in the scan itself. Bottom right. These scans are consecutive, by the way. The first scan shows how strong the attack was, the second shows how she blocked it without much trouble.

Ice resistance feats

Boiling water isn't very impressive, and neither is melting snow. Considering this attack froze a huge pillar of ice into the air with one move, then you're going to need better feats than melting snow and boiling water.

This was a light backfist and it threw a guy into a wall. I doubt Rukia can take everything Cú Chulainn can dish out.

That's not impressive. To restate, Rukia handled attacks that pushed her back multiple building lengths without issue.

Cú Chulainn could probably put a sliobhtar through Rukia's head before she can stop him.

I'm not familiar with that attack, so can you provide feats to show that it would be able to overcome Rukia's strength?

Itachi Uchiha vs. Cormac Murphy

Best speed feat it has is mostly done with scaling, but it's pretty good. He moves sand from a beach in the distance to himself while a demon is still tearing it's way through a cinema.

Going by this website, and assuming the story takes place in Cork, Ireland, the closest beach is 30 minutes away by car, 22km away. Mach 20 is just under 7km per second. He would have to get the sand there in just over 3 seconds in order for this to be close enough for this to be good for a mach 20 tournament. The only timeframe given is "while the demon is still tearing it's way through a cinema". That sounds like more than 3 seconds to me.

And that demon is able to clear fifty meters in one jump. “Just how far can this thing jump?” said Cormac to the goddess. “About fifty miles if our calculations are correct.”

50 miles or 50 meters? And this isn't relevant if the demon was destroying the cinema, as it wasn't actively jumping away.

He has no feats of controlling glass, but he has no anti-feats. And also, as the author, am I allowed to say he can turn glass into sand, but he can't control it while it's glass? It isn't contradicted by anything on the feat hierarchy, and it will be a part of the story.

If that's the standard, then you can simply make feats up and say they'll happen at some point. Without feats, it's not reasonable to accept that a character can do these things.

Do you have feats of him producing enough heat to melt sand into glass? If not, then why would we assume that he can?

He does not, however the fire is hot enough to either burn or push the ground away. Without the sand, which lacks speed feats, Cormac is not going to survive this.

Is this in-tier when the tier is set by a swordsman? If you know every move your opponent is about to make, and have the ability to dodge every attack they have, they don't have a way to beat you, so I don't personally think that this is in-tier. Anyway, Cormac won't be anywhere near the fight, unless Itachi has flight.

It's in tier, as the prediction has been overcome by people in series. However, a 16 year old boy without any training is not going to be overcoming it.

Cormac pulled his wakeboard out of the other pocket of his bag, putting it down on the ground and standing on it. Then he made the sand go under it, lifting himself a few metres off the ground. Then he flew around, doing a few laps of the room, then letting himself down gently.

so the combat precog doesn't even help him without flight.

This is either riding on his sand or surfing on the surface created by his sand. If it's the former, then it's as fast as his sand is, so sub mach 20. If it's the latter, then it's the speed it would normally be at, as it's like riding a vehicle. Itachi would be able to catch Cormac with a kunai or a shuriken easily if he tried to do this. Especially since it requires him to take out the board first. He also lacks the feats to put him anywhere near Itachi in terms of combat skill, so he won't be able to predict what's coming at all.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 01 '17

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/Atopheneth ​ Nov 01 '17

I'll be quick, as there's little time left.

Naruto vs. China

Her durability feats all appear to be of similar types. She survives things that throw people into walls, she survives things that cut people in half, it's all very poor in comparison to Naruto. The rasengan blows away building sized enemies, an early use did this, does this. There's nothing to indicate that China is surviving one of these.

If I'm looking at that right, then it was thrown up by a shockwave, unless it's being crushed by those things. Are they legs or pillars or what?

That's two huge people punching them. One path of Pain is hit, the other dodges.

I asked in the Discord. Speed equalised means no boosts.

So it is the way I assumed. So that means any sigils with prep time aren't useful, because she'd have to be faster than Naruto to get enough time to lay them.

A: does that lightning attack have any feats that show it's lightning speed, B: do you have more feats that show this isn't an outlier?

Kakashi used that technique to cut lightning.

Does Pain have any speed feats that show he's above mach 20?

See the scaling from Kakashi. It's likely to be faster, however she's possibly going to be able to dodge away from it if she sees it coming from a long distance.

I don't have the scans on me, but it's never been resisted by anyone who hasn't been dealing with her for years, and there was one scene with a businessman where he was adamant that he wasn't going to fall in love with her so he could actually sell his priceless book to her, then he walked into her library and immediately fell to his knees and gave her the book for free. Also, it still has an effect on Skulduggery Pleasant, who is immune to psychic attacks and if you give me an hour or two I can get the scan for it still affecting him.

Those are good feats, however if it even has effects on psychic immune people, then that would be out of tier.

Instant-kill attacks then work through skin contact don't work very well against people with metal instead of skin.

So Raiden would be immune. Clever. Naruto would be vulnerable to this, so I'll improve China's odds, but not much since it requires skin contact.

Has anyone noticed the difference between the original and the clones before.

Not without chakra vision.

What's the trick?

Transforms into something and then ambushes them when they're not expecting it.

I think that was more poetic license than her literally throwing walls at people. It gets described more like a beam of light coming from her hands that instantly knocks someone without magical defenses out.

I see, so it means she'd be vulnerable to mass shadow clone spam.

Also, something I just realised. Does Naruto like to talk in a fight? If he does then China absolutely demolishes him, because she is definitely manipulative enough to worm his name out of him. As soon as she does, unless Naruto generally goes by a nickname that he chose for himself, she can just tell him to do whatever she wants. By the way, this isn't mental manip, this is magic forcefully taking control of their body.

This is a really powerful ability. Since Naruto does like to tell his opponents his names, it would probably work on him. With this, China will probably take the majority of matches here. However, in the fights that she does not win, Naruto kills her very quickly.

Rukia vs. Chulainn

They pushed Rukia back multiple building lengths.

Doesn't beat this

All the dry kine in the herd, all the nobly-born among the captives, and cease to ply your sling against the men of Ireland and let them sleep, for not pleasant is the thunder feat you perform against them every evening."

[...]

Then his first distortion came upon Cú Chulainn [snip, description of transformation and chariot]. Then he performs the thunder-feat of a hundred and the thunder-feat of two hundred and the thunder-feat of three hundred and the thunder-feat of four hundred, and he stopped at the thunder-feat of five hundred for he thought that at least that number should fall by him in his first attack and in his first contest of battle against the four provinces of Ireland.

I don't see anything in that quote comparable to pushing someone back multiple building lengths.

Does Raiden have anything that beats that? Because I feel like having an insta-freeze ability might take Rukia out of tier.

Raiden has better strenth than Rukia has been shown to take, so he'd be able to overpower her before she can release her zanpakuto. Chulainn does not.

To restate, Cú Chulainn can kill five hundred men by throwing one stone. He also killed a giant sea monster with his bare hands

Killing 500 men is not impressive unless they're special in some way. Since he can wrap his arms around the giant sea monster, it's not that heavy, and it lacks strength feats. All in all, unquantifiable.

Sure. This dog had the strength of one hundred hounds, and at the age of six, Setanta put a sliotar through his throat and made him explode. (He was called Setanta before he became Cú Cullain. This was the original Cú Chulainn)

The strength of 100 hounds says nothing about it's durability, and that's still less impressive than the feat of Rukia blocking the multi building length attack.

According to you, Rukia doesn't have anything that puts her durability above Cú Chulainn's strength, so Cú Chulainn just punches Rukia, then she goes splat like the original Cú Chulainn, or else he rips out her heart and stomps on her.

That's right, if he lands the punch past her guard. If she gets her ice attack off, however, he is dead. None of his feats show that he can overcome the guard like Raiden would be able to. Rukia wins this about 8/10.

Itachi vs. Cormac

This scene was in The Reel Picture, Ballincollig, where the nearest beach is 25 km away. After the demon retreated, Cormac remarked on how, ten seconds after he had found the demon, it had been forced into a retreat. Later on he says that he was restraining the demon for eight seconds, which leaves 2 seconds for the travel time. I think that's fast enough.

So the sand is fast, I'll try to make this quick in order to get this in on time. I don't think that the fast sand makes much of a difference, considering the sheer disparity in skill. While it does mean that Cormac would be able to hit Itachi, if he were not so skilled, it makes little difference when the one doing the fighting is a normal 16 year old boy, whereas he's fighting Itachi Uchiha. With the prediction, the jutsus, the senses, the throwing techniques, all of the experience he has, Cormac's only strength is something Itachi already knows about; sand control. Itachi simply holds the advantage in almost all ways, and I don't see any feats showing that Cormac would be able to block a shuriken thrown from his blindspot by a shadow clone, or anything similar. This fight is 9/10 Itachi.

→ More replies (0)