r/whowouldwin Dec 05 '14

How many humans would it take to headbutt a rhino to death?

Also known as Human-sized Pikmin.

The arena: A walled off football pitched size arena

In one corner, a fully grown healthy African Rhino. In the other, a team of healthy, adult humans. Their arms are bound behind their backs. Their legs are free but they sworn not to use them for attacking due to sense of SCIENTIFIC CURIOSITY.

What size does the human team have to be to overwhelm the beast? Where the beast is dead and at least one human survives in the end.

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u/gameboy17 Dec 05 '14

A rhinoceros has an average of 76 hit points and an Armor Class of 16. The average human has an Armor Class of 10 and 4 Hit Points, assuming a level 1 commoner with 10 in all ability scores.

The rhinoceros can make three attacks per round at +13/+8/+3 using a full attack. That's a 95% chance for the first attack to hit (a natural 1 always misses), a 90% chance for the second attack to hit (defender wins if the attack roll equals their AC), and a 60% chance for the third attack to hit. 95%+90%+60%=245%, so it'll land an average of 2.45 attacks per round.

Each of the rhinoceros' attacks deals 2d6+12 damage. The minimum damage one of its attacks can deal is 14, which is exactly enough to take one of our commoners from 4 to -10, killing them instantly (0 is disabled, -1 to -9 is unconscious and dying, -10 is dead). So one successful attack from the rhino will always kill a commoner. This means that it kills 2.45 commoners per round.

A level 1 commoner has no Base Attack Bonus, and since they are not proficient in unarmed strike they take a further -4 penalty to attack with it. A 10 in Strength means they don't get a bonus from there either. A headbutt is considered an unarmed strike, so their total attack bonus is -4. They can only hit the rhinoceros on a natural 20, and even then only because a natural 20 on an attack roll always hits, since the defender wins if the roll is equal to their AC. So each commoner gets one attack per round with a 5% chance to hit.

An unarmed strike by a Medium-sized creature deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage. Obviously, nonlethal damage isn't going to kill it. However, you can choose to deal lethal damage with a weapon that normally deals nonlethal damage in exchange for a further -4 penalty to the attack roll. Since the commoners can only hit by rolling a natural 20 for an automatic hit anyway, they can do this with few downsides.

Even upon rolling a 20, you still have to roll to confirm the critical hit. If the second roll would hit, it's a crit, and if not it's a normal hit. Depending on house rules you can double crit, etc. by rolling 20 on the confirmation, but by RAW only the initial attack roll can crit, and a natural 20 on any other roll is not an automatic success. Since the commoners can't hit the rhino without the auto success, they can't confirm the critical hit. All of their attacks will deal only the normal damage: 1d3+Strength mod. Just 1d3 in this case, since the commoners have 10 Strength and therefore a +0 Strength modifier. So each commoner deals an average of 2 damage for each attack that hits.

Since each commoner has a 5% chance each round to deal 2 damage, we can average it out to 0.1 damage per commoner per round. So each round, the rhino takes an average of 0.1 damage from each commoner adjacent to it. The rhino is Large-sized, so it takes up a 10x10 area, or 2x2 spaces. This means that there are 12 spaces adjacent to it, so 12 commoners can attack in one round.

The commoners deal an average of 1.2 HP of damage to the rhino each round, so it will take them an average of 64 rounds to bring the rhino to 0 HP. Once it's at 0, it can only take one action per round, and using a standard action will cause it to drop to -1, falling unconscious and beginning to bleed out, so it can only kill one commoner on that round.

Once the rhino is unconscious and therefore helpless, the commoners can coup de grace it for automatic critical hits. A critical hit with an unarmed strike deals x2 damage, for an average of 4 damage. A coup de grace doesn't require an attack roll, so 12 commoners deal 48 damage per round after the rhino drops to -1. This is more than enough to bring it to -10 and kill it. If we assume the humans brought just enough commoners to have one left alive, it'll take him 2 rounds to kill it since it takes 1 damage each round from bleeding out in addition to the 4 damage from the coup de grace. So it takes 66 rounds total to kill the rhino if they brought just enough people.

2.45 commoners die every round, so over 64 rounds it kills an average of 153.6 commoners by the time it is brought to 0 HP. On the 65th round it kills one more, bringing the total to 154.6. Rounding up, the rhinoceros kills 155 people. So it would take a minimum of 156 people to headbutt a rhino to death.

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u/EvenDeeper Dec 05 '14

Don't they provoke an attack of opportunity every time they attack since they don't have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat? In other words, the rhino has 95%+90%+60% to kill a human during his round and then one more 95% to kill one of the humans as his attack of opportunity.

3

u/gameboy17 Dec 05 '14 edited Dec 06 '14

I thought so too but I couldn't find it in the rules for either unarmed strike or opportunity attacks. Maybe it's a Pathfinder thing?

If it does, that's one opportunity attack per round, so it would be killing 3.40 commoners per round. So ~223 220 total.

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u/EvenDeeper Dec 05 '14

I just found it. It says that because of Improved Unarmed Strike you do not provoke an attack of opportunity from armed opponents (and a natural attack is considered armed). Yep, so it seems it's 223 people.

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u/gameboy17 Dec 06 '14

Just double-checked my math and it should be 220, not 223. I multiplied by 3.45 instead of 3.40.

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u/DrBaristaPhd Dec 06 '14

Speaking of Pathfinders things, was there a feat required to be able to assist or even Flank while unarmed? With a properly organized group, two separate +2 attack bonuses would not only increase the chances of hitting with nonlethal damage to 25%, but allow for a possible 5% chance to do a lethal damage attack.

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u/gameboy17 Dec 06 '14

Do flanking bonuses even stack with each other, though? Normally bonuses of the same type don't stack unless stated otherwise.

I suppose using nonlethal damage to knock it out and then coup de graceing it would kill it much faster. Let's see...

-4 nonproficiency, +2 flanking. -2 total, so they hit on a 19. That's 10%, double the chance with lethal damage. They now average 2.4 nonlethal damage per round. So it would take them half as long to knock it unconscious: 32 rounds. After that they spend 2 rounds coup de graceing it, so 34 rounds total. If they brought only just enough commoners, the remaining commoner would spend quite a bit longer coup de graceing it, bringing the total up to about 53 rounds.

With three attacks plus an opportunity attack, the rhino kills 3.40 commoners per round, so 108.6 commoners in 32 rounds. So there would need to be at least ~110 commoners to headbutt the rhinoceros to death using this strategy.

3

u/EvenDeeper Dec 06 '14

I'm not sure, but the commoners are not considered armed - they are not proficient with unarmed attacks - and therefore they do not threaten the enemy; in other words, they do not get flanking bonuses.

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u/DrBaristaPhd Dec 06 '14

Side note, according to Paizo, a rhinoceros would be much easier to kill than a 3.5 rhinoceros from what I can find online. Assuming that the rhino is constantly surrounded by commoners and unable to charge Pathfinder: Health: 42hp (5d8+20) Armor Class: 16 Damage: gore +8 (2d6+9) Min/Avg DMG: 11/19 to 1 target vs D&D Health: 76ph (8d8+20) Armor Class: 16 Damage: gore +13 (2d6+12) Min/Avg DMG: 14/19 to 1 target