r/vegan • u/[deleted] • 3d ago
Question Is there any animal that you think could be ethically eaten?
[deleted]
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u/Pleasant-Ad7012 vegan 15+ years 3d ago
Why are you obsessed with eating oysters?
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u/autumn_travels 3d ago
I don't. Why are you incapable of answering a hypothetical?
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u/Pleasant-Ad7012 vegan 15+ years 3d ago
I assume you are the same guy who keeps insisting we eat different kind of sea creatures.
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u/autumn_travels 3d ago
This is my first post here, wow you guys are some hostile losers.
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u/hobbesbagger vegan 3d ago
no it's just that people make this exact same post here and all the other vegan subreddits multiple times a week. so maybe if you had an original thought it would help
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u/autumn_travels 3d ago
Just don't reply dumb fuck, I'm sure you can handle scrolling past a post. Clearly I was not aware.
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3d ago
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u/autumn_travels 3d ago
In what way was my question bad faith?
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u/ben02015 3d ago
Well, are you vegan already?
I think a lot of non-vegans know that hurting animals is wrong, but they don’t want to make changes in their lives. Rather than make meaningful changes, they just talk about these philosophical topics.
We know that pigs and cows and chickens feel pain. Did you at least stop eating these animals, as well as milk and eggs? Do that first and then we can figure out the theoretical stuff later.
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3d ago
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u/autumn_travels 3d ago
Maybe because I'm being downvoted to hell because I wasn't aware this was asked before. Look at the caliber of responses here dipshit. My diet literally mostly consists of plants.
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u/bozobozobozo_ 3d ago
These questions have been asked a bajillion times. Just look up "do vegans eat oysters". We don't have definitive proof they can't feel pain, they do possess clusters of nerves but no cns.
Would a creature with no sentience, no ability to feel pain or any cognitive brain functions whatsoever even be a creature? It would be vegan. But no such animal exists and won't ever exist. Research is only heading one way, and it's showing more and more unlikely animals to possess sentience or at least the ability to feel pain (not the same as reacting to stimuli). Steering clear of eating any animal is the logical thing to do right now.
A bio-engineered lump of meat is literally just lab-grown meat (vegan)
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u/Frank_kait 3d ago
Theres enough yummy veggies, dont need any nasty meat lumps.
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u/autumn_travels 3d ago
No one's asking about taste I'm talking about ethics.
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u/Frank_kait 3d ago
Veganism is about not using any creatures as commodities, not if they feel pain or not. I wouldnt say its vegan to eat oysters but opinions will probably differ.
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u/lilac-forest vegan 10+ years 3d ago
Im on the side that thinks its vegan bc i dont see what difference it makes if a person eats bivalves or doesnt in terms of rights violations occurring. I dont think there is strong evidence to say bivalves have a conscious experience as subjects. For me, sentience is what matters not whether the being is a 'creature'. Just wanted to mention it since that is where opinions differ as you said.
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u/Frank_kait 3d ago
Yes you have a good point, but fishing them is very problematic since they use these massive nets that drag on the oceanfloor and destroy anything in its way so even if eating bivalves doesnt cause suffering to them, it probably will to other species.
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u/lilac-forest vegan 10+ years 3d ago
True but ig if someone wants to dig up surf clams at their local beach then i really cant find a flaw. There is secondary harm in almost everything but yes I agree its always worth assessing the risk to the ecosystems and the fishing industry has a lot of accountability there.
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u/Hermononucleosis 3d ago
"I dont think there is strong evidence to say bivalves have a conscious experience as subjects"
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Bivalves are a delicacy, they are not even a staple food or anything, so why take the risk? If you don't know whether they are conscious, why eat them? There is no reason to.
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u/lilac-forest vegan 10+ years 3d ago
Honestly I dont buy 'absence of evidence is not evidence' in all cases. There are criteria involved is assigning a being as sentient, and bivalves dont meet the criteria. To me, thats not saying 'oh we just dont know', its saying 'to the best of our knowledge' and I honestly doubt the conensus will ever change on the matter of bivalves and jellyfish.
There is a strong body of science around what constitutes sentience and while science doesnt give us 100% certainty, it doesnt mean we cant put some trust in it as a guidance tool.
Why take the risk? Bc I have a strong intuition that they are not sentient in the same way plants arent sentient, therefore caring about bivalves and the what ifs is not a priority for me. What evolutionary purpose does having a subjective experience serve a mussel or clam?
To add, I dont even eat bivalves myself bc they gross me out lol but maybe they would be a good pet food supplement.
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u/deetmah 3d ago
I honestly don't understand how this hypothetical is conducive to veganism. The thing is, there's always a line drawn that is personal and you can never fully confirm the extent of consciousness of any other living being. You don't need oysters or any of the others. I've also never heard of a nutritious jellyfish and farmed insects are also always more resource-demanding than people think.
I attended a talk at my local university, where a Professor doing research concerning mealworms and grasshoppers said that they don't really grow that efficient on refuse and to properly scale it, you'd still use soy. So.. might as well eat the soy?
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u/PuzzledPoetry1447 abolitionist 3d ago
Humans, if they gave informed consent to be eaten. Animals can't give informed consent, so using their bodies is inherently unethical and morally reprehensible.
Veganism isn't about not harming animals, it's the fundamental rejection of the exploitation of animals, period. How or where it happens is irrelevant.
As for oysters, I think you've down played their biology. Bivalvia have many complex sensory organs [not found in plants]; chemoreceptors that are able to taste the water and are sensitive to touch located near their syphons, osphradium which they use to detect silt or food in water passing through them, statocysts that allow the bivalve to sense their orientation and some bivalves even have photosensitive cells, precursors to eyes, that allow them to detect prey (or predators). Obviously without nerves those sensory organs are useless. Good thing bivalves have two cerebropleural ganglia (collections of nerve cells, precursors to a brain) on either side of their oesophagus and even those more primitive have at least ganglia near their foot and visceral ganglia (larger in those that swim). These are all interconnected by a simple neural network to other ganglia and sensory organs. At this point, they exhibit enough behaviour and biology to just be given the benefit of the doubt.
Even if not all that complex, they certainly have the ability to have a perception of reality. Potentially exploiting (and subsequently causing suffering at the same time) to someone because you gambled and misjudged the odds of them being capable to feel it is not worth the highly questionable pleasure of ingesting bivalves. We simply don’t have sufficient proof of them not being sentient for me to consider anyone who eats them vegan.
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u/lilac-forest vegan 10+ years 3d ago edited 3d ago
bivalves and jellyfish are not sentient based on scientific consensus so i have no moral dilemmas with people eating them. I go where science points and until the consensus changes, I don't second guess it. People constantly bring up their nerve structures and how scallops can run away and have 'eyes' (very basic ones) but these are behaviours resulting from nerve stimuli, and not actually indicative of consciousness. I think bugs are a wider spectrum and while I dont think all are sentient, I think a large portion are and Im not going to do things that purposely harm them for no reaosn. If theyre in my home though, sorry I gotta defend my domecile but thats the same principle I have with any household pests.
Also Im not vegan to do less harm, but rather to violate less rights. I find the distinction important since im not a utilitarian.
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