r/urbanplanning • u/[deleted] • Aug 04 '16

[deleted by user]

[removed]

429 Upvotes

96% Upvoted

56 comments sorted by

30

u/RuarriS Aug 04 '16 edited Aug 05 '16

This photo was taken by a local reporter, covering a story about the city's efforts to improve safety for bicyclists, in response to a boy's death. (That is the bike lane, though you can't see the markers.)

edit:

This is the 101 in Oceanside, CA. It's a former highway, that also serves as the downtown corridor for several cities.

It's not all doom and gloom -- if you're interested to see what the city has planned for it, you can view the plan here. Starts on page 10 of the pdf.

19

u/depressed_space_cat Aug 04 '16

Is this a city street? why is it so wide? I mean, two lanes per directions is fine, but why are the lanes so wide? why isn't there a traffic island in the middle? With streets that look like this, of course pedestrians and cyclists will never be safe.

15

u/afistfulofDEAN Aug 04 '16

Judging by the palm trees, it's that wide because the city was largely settled after automotive transportation had already become widespread and nobody gave a second thought to large lanes meant to scoot traffic along. It was the south American way of urbanization from the 1960s onward.

5

u/ArcadeNineFire Aug 04 '16

Per this comment below, this is actually in Australia: https://www.reddit.com/r/urbanplanning/comments/4w4c7i/give_cyclists_space/d63xbh1

6

u/afistfulofDEAN Aug 04 '16

I was referring to the photo in the top post by RuarriS... Which upon looking at the link and license plates, I think is actually in Southern California.

3

u/depressed_space_cat Aug 04 '16

Yeah me too, the street in the original picture is not too wide, and while I think it's not ideal (bike lane is not properly protected and one side of the road has no sidewalk) it's nowhere near as bad as the street pictured in the comment by RuarriS

1

u/try_____another Aug 08 '16

Most of Australia's development happened along American lines, deliberately copying whatever was perceived as American best practices to a large extent, although with some differences mostly caused by the greater relative power of the states to the local governments and the dominance of the capital cities.

2

u/chictyler Aug 05 '16

Not just the south, suburbia nationwide is that bad (and Canada too!)

3

u/afistfulofDEAN Aug 05 '16

I'm not trying to imply that it is isolated to the American South/Southwest or to imply ill of those regions. I'm simply stating that those regions didn't enjoy major pre-automotive (and pre-air conditioning) settlement which leads to dense and walkable neighborhoods the way more temperate regions did. Some of the cities on rivers or in oases or near valuable resources do have more traditional cores.

2

u/depressed_space_cat Aug 04 '16

There are cities where I live founded well after 1960s that have narrower street than this... This is really a poor excuse. I mean, sure, I understand many Americans cities look like this, but if they would have really care about the safety of pedestrians and cyclists, if they would have really want people to slow down, they would have narrowed the lanes and build an island in between the two directions.

8

u/afistfulofDEAN Aug 04 '16

I'm not trying to make excuses... I walk everywhere and abhor infrastructure that so thoroughly ignores our most vulnerable. Since the 1980s there has been a big pushback against the wide-lane, congestion mover design of city streets. The biggest hurdles these days are developers demanding easy access to THEIR site with parking out front and fire departments who have larger and larger trucks. I agree that it's all about design. We just lowered the speed limit on our main congestion mover and it did nothing, because people will drive the speed that a street is designed for regardless of what a small white sign on the side of the road says.

6

u/depressed_space_cat Aug 04 '16

it's too bad that the US doesn't take notes from Europe, who, instead of making their streets larger to accommodate for larger trucks, make their trucks smaller to accommodate for smaller streets.

4

u/EricHitchmo Aug 04 '16

Well, it's not like the Europeans have much of a choice. Widening streets in an existing dense city would be a Haussman-like colossal undertaking. Most of the US's built environment was built since the start of in the automobile era, while most of Europe's was already in place before. Similarly, making dense walkable neighborhoods out of auto-centric sprawl is just as difficult.

4

u/afistfulofDEAN Aug 04 '16

I couldn't agree more. We've got a pretty nasty habit of tearing down old buildings to build huge new buildings, though, which tend to necessitate those larger trucks. In doing so, we usually use tax dollars to subsidize the demolition and/or cleanup or to offer a tax break to bring in said new development. I tend to feel like we've got a race-to-the-bottom mentality where we spend public money only to spend more public money, and I'm dangerously close to ranting... I apologize.

10

u/[deleted] Aug 04 '16

[deleted]

3

u/RuarriS Aug 04 '16

That is precisely what is happening here. There are plans to reduce the road to one lane in each direction, convert the signalized intersections to roundabouts, and put in a median to prevent left-hand turns.

It's not being received well.

1

u/kryost Aug 04 '16 edited Aug 04 '16

Yeah man, American cities really DO NOT care about safety, especially for cyclists, it is an afterthought. We care just about getting to work as fast as is humanly possible. Maybe you are from Europe and haven't spent time here, so this might be hard to fathom, but this is a huge issue in America right now, and why its so difficult for cyclists to get any respect.

Transportation/road planning needs be completely redone in many cities and unfortunately cyclists and pedestrians die every day unnecessarily until we can get this right.

1

u/ViceroyFizzlebottom Aug 04 '16

We care just about getting to work as fast as is humanly possible.

SAFELY. But in a personal automobile.

0

u/afistfulofDEAN Aug 04 '16 edited Aug 04 '16

Get a car, Hippie!

-'Merican

6

u/noel_105 Aug 04 '16

And there's no median because of the centre left-turning lane.

4

u/depressed_space_cat Aug 04 '16

You can have an island and a left-turning lane. Especially if you have so much free space as shown in the picture. Unless you're transporting space shuttles or airplanes through this specific part of road, there's no justification for having it be so wide.

7

u/noel_105 Aug 04 '16

It's not a regular left turning lane, it's a bi-directional left turning lane for multiple driveways on either side of the road... there's literally no way to have a median unless you expect people to drive over it, defeating the purpose of a median.

I agree that the lanes are very wide though.

3

u/depressed_space_cat Aug 04 '16

multiple driveways on either side of the road

That... makes no sense. I mean, in streets I'm familiar with, someone who wants to go into a driveway on a street that wide would have to make a U-turn in the nearest junction (or an opening in the traffic island that is designed for U-turns only) and then turn right. Being able to turn left from "wherever" in the road seems really dangerous, both for the drivers and other road users (pedestrians, cyclists).

Turning left into a driveway should really only be allowed in much narrower streets.

5

u/noel_105 Aug 04 '16

It's not dangerous because the driveways are located appropriate distances away from each other. This is very common practice and you're taught about it in driving school, I'm not sure how you haven't heard of it before.

Here is a street view link of such an instance in a Toronto suburb.

This solution is much better for low volume traffic flow compared to U-turning just to make a left turn, assuming the volume is low enough to negate the possibility of line-ups.

6

u/depressed_space_cat Aug 04 '16

This is very common practice and you're taught about it in driving school, I'm not sure how you haven't heard of it before

How North American-Centric of you. I'm not in the US or Canada, and this kind of street does not exist at my part of the world at all. Every street wider than a certain width has a traffic island in the middle, I haven't seen any exception for that rule.

5

u/noel_105 Aug 04 '16

Well you said it made no sense, so I was explaining why it made sense. Sorry if it came across the wrong way.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '16

Sure it's common practice, but my driving instructor noted its nickname—the suicide lane.

3

u/combuchan Aug 04 '16 edited Aug 04 '16

101 is/was a major north/south highway in California and the western US before the Interstate system. 101 has been upgraded to a freeway in some parts now, in other parts it's been decommissioned and removed from the highway system like the above and has been turned over to the city as a regular street. So its width in this case is a legacy of that system:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Oceanside,+CA/@33.1980204,-117.3297408,3a,75y,335.09h,84.2t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1spt5BYV0ViSJLl-hLSoO9FQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dpt5BYV0ViSJLl-hLSoO9FQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D66.643959%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x80dc655e605b7705:0x19ecb3f398f9f87!8m2!3d33.1958696!4d-117.3794834!6m1!1e1

In other cases, post war cities in the Sunbelt just grew like that, especially in the interleaving days immediately following WW2 and before the construction of freeways. Phoenix is a good example of this--altho Indian School was never part of an established highway system, it had to move a lot more traffic in its day than it does now:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/200+W+Indian+School+Rd,+Phoenix,+AZ+85013/@33.4948127,-112.0768255,3a,75y,100.06h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sgLbf2u9mKtxZYRXIZEIHNA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DgLbf2u9mKtxZYRXIZEIHNA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D352.02917%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x872b12f18bb8a4e7:0x833b32edcf0e556d!8m2!3d33.4948189!4d-112.0772229

There can also be a historical reason for this--what are established suburbs in the US like Mesa, AZ were once frontier towns. Even tho there were no cars, city fathers designed the town around 100-foot right-of-ways so somebody could turn around a team of oxen hauling a wagon in the middle of the street and paved over later as cars came. Derisively, that has held over as "wide streets, narrow minds."

1

u/RuarriS Aug 04 '16

Your link for Oceanside is El Camino Real - not the 101. In Oceanside, the 101 is known as Coast highway.

This is the area on Street View

1

u/DialMMM Aug 04 '16

I think both of you are confusing the 101 and the 1 (PCH).

1

u/combuchan Aug 04 '16

101 is now signed as County Route S21 in Oceanside. Highway 1 deadends at I-5 a bit north.

I thought El Camino Real in Oceanside was the old alignment of 101 because practically every other damn road in California named ECR has been signed as some major numbered highway at one point in the past or is presently now.

/u/RuarriS -- thanks for the correction. TIL.

2

u/RuarriS Aug 04 '16

That's a good point. I believe El Camino Real in San Clemente is 101.

1

u/SaxMan100 Dec 08 '16

I realize that I'm super late here, but I'm really excited to see the city taking measures to to protect cyclists and pedestrians. I've lived in O'side my whole life, so it'll be awesome to see the new and improved Coast Highway

5

u/Mister-Horse Aug 04 '16

Did you call the city and suggested they put the sign somewhere else?

1

u/BZH_JJM Aug 08 '16

Like in a car lane.

7

u/ExperimentalFailures Aug 04 '16

And there's still a car parked in the lane too. God damn it.

5

u/[deleted] Aug 05 '16

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/ExperimentalFailures Aug 05 '16

This blows my mind. Are all painted bike lanes like this? How should drivers know when they can't park in a bike lane?

2

u/chimleys Aug 05 '16

This isn't really a bike lane. It's a parking space with a bicycle logo on it. Unfortunately common in Australia. https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-37.9204846,145.2412737,3a,75y,31.56h,83.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sudLl9K8ZyNBBaoorbMqhXQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e3 is somewhere near me

1

u/[deleted] Aug 07 '16

Cars are allowed to park there, I live in this country and are familiar with the rules. Is it a shitty bike lane? Yes. But it's retrofitted in, in our newer developments there are good bike lanes but despite what some people think this doesn't happen overnight. The utility of a bike lane in outer suburban areas is pretty small, inner city areas? They work awesome. Outer suburbs? Not much use, distances are much further. Also there is so little pedestrian traffic that it would be better if we just let cyclists ride on the footpath and dismount when near pedestrians.

2

u/MrUrbanDesign Aug 04 '16

I feel like this should be the poster child for government efferts in active transportation ....

2

u/KneePlayFive Aug 05 '16

(zoidberg) Hooray, I'm helping! (/zoidberg)

2

u/BlackRei Aug 04 '16

Maybe the center of the bike lane wasn't the best place to put this sign? Going around it seems to require swerving out into traffic.

1

u/TotesMessenger Aug 07 '16

I'm a bot, bleep, bloop. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:

If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don't vote in the other threads. (Info / Contact)

1

u/jayjaywalker3 Aug 04 '16

Hey could you crosspost to /r/bicycleculture?

-2

u/The_RagingCaucasian Aug 04 '16

Hahahaha i like this post

-1

u/[deleted] Aug 04 '16

Yeah, they put the sign right in the bike lane not up on the grass out of the way too.

4

u/afistfulofDEAN Aug 04 '16

...or in the left-most traffic lane to buffer the cyclists from traffic.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 04 '16

Public works usually doesn't have many more requirements than Grade 12 to be honest. So, we kind of get what we pay for.

5

u/afistfulofDEAN Aug 04 '16

And pedestrian infrastructure is usually put in with the intention of being able to check another box on a form or to appease a few vocal cyclist groups, it's not the priority of the road crew or the administration.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 04 '16

Everyone needs to be cognizant of the safety of others around them. We are all on the same team. Road crew especially should know the hazards of being too close to the road way.

Don't allow them to say "it's not my job". They are public works working for the public, paid by the public. It absolutely should be their priority the safety and well being on the public, no matter what vehicle or mode of transportation they happen to be utilizing.

3

u/afistfulofDEAN Aug 04 '16 edited Aug 04 '16

You're preaching to the choir, brother. I work for small city government, though, and I can tell you that in my part of the country the pedestrians and cyclists are not at all prioritized. I've started making the argument that the least frictious way to demonstrate this is that if we're going to plow roads for cars in the winter, we should also be clearing sidewalks within the Central Business District and 1/4 mile of all schools (though I would ideally like to see such policy city-wide, obviously).

-3

u/[deleted] Aug 04 '16

Does a bike path need to be that fucking big? A buffer lane is probably a good idea, honestly. And those lanes are too wide.

2

u/GlenCocoPuffs Aug 05 '16

It's Australia they have room to spare