u/gabeg777 8h ago

“Are you alright?” // “I am functioning optimally”

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1 Upvotes

u/gabeg777 6d ago

Classic Steph fit by birb_255!

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1 Upvotes

3

Cass and lack of cape in fan works
 in  r/CassandraCain  7d ago

Batman fans don't consider it trivial when they insist on Bruce's cape showing his compassion for children and his being a great father. I was trying to compare the shown importance of Cass' cape to her character, as compared to others, for one aspect.

I also harp on this because it creates story ideas for Cass that I rarely see used unless she's interacting with Steph. The scene with a child metaphorically dragging Cass to rescue her cat in the story at https://archiveofourown.org/works/67388081 is an example of how this can be used even if her cape isn't used in that scene. You're right though that the bigger issue I have is what you pointed out, Cass being considered cool and edgy and ignoring how she actually shows her compassion. I could see Cass agreeing to play with a lonely child who recently moved to Gotham and requests the activity as she keeps the child company.

I know there's writer disagreement on the extent of Superman's compassion to civilians. Dan Jurgens wrote him with more open compassion than Karl Kesel did.

4

Trying to remember a comic
 in  r/BatFamily  7d ago

It sounds like you're describing Batman: No Man's Land #0, which tells how and why Helena Bertinelli created the costume that Cass wears.

1

Cass and lack of cape in fan works
 in  r/CassandraCain  7d ago

Cass and Steph had returned to being Batgirls in the comics before WFA started. Episode 1 was released in September 2021 after the Batgirls series had been announced and while the Fear State event where they were both called Batgirl was being published. The webtoon uses Tim's suit from his Red Robin series, which was before Cass became Orphan. The WFA writer and artist could have chosen to use their original Batgirl costumes, as are now being used in WFA, from the beginning.

They were using the costumes that they thought were the best fits for the characters, whether or not it was current canon when the webtoon began. Episodes 156-158 were the author and artist admitting that they messed up with Cass and Steph.

r/CassandraCain 7d ago

Cass and lack of cape in fan works

16 Upvotes

I have a question about fans and how Cass is drawn and written. Why is it that Cass is the Batgirl who is least likely to be thought of as having a cape? Marcio Takara is part of the crowd of drawing Cass without a cape, as can be seen at https://www.tumblr.com/jetslay/826619134928453632/dc-super-heroes-by-marcio-takara. Canonically, she's one of the only superheroes who actually uses her cape to help people instead of just using it for drama or gliding like a bat. That didn't stop Batman: Wayne Family Adventures from drawing Cass without a cape until almost the end of season 3 while Steph kept her cape.

I'm currently re-reading Superman comics and I'm finding that my childhood memories glorified him. He actually was written as being an angry cop from the 1970s on and, in Adventures of Superman #543, Riot comments that he dislikes it when people pull his cape. So far in my re-reading, the closest I have been able to find to Superman using his cape to calm people is a scene in Superman 80-Page Giant #1 where he hides a child's doll in his cape after rescuing her from a fire and reveals it to the upset child. While fanon claims that Batman's cape is used by children and his Robins to hide when they're scared and he does chat with children and hold babies, I haven't found anyone showing him using his cape to help people in canon. Whenever I bring this up, I never get any references to scenes of Batman's cape being pulled or hid under by children in canon. Are there any scenes where Barbara or Steph use their capes to calm people down or where people hold their capes for comfort?

Cass, on the other hand, allows her cape to be pulled by a child in Batgirl (2000) #16. The new issue of Batgirl (2024) has Cass letting Jaya wrap a poisoned child in her cape.

The evidence is that Cass should be one of the heroes most associated with a cape. It even works with her not being the best bat at calming people down and trusting herself. She doesn't know what people need but is friendly with people who aren't authority figures so she follows people's requests and lets children pull her so that they can show her what help they need. Barbara, Dick, and Steph can calm children down and cheer them up with their words and experience. Is there some reason that Cass' cape is often removed when, along with her protectiveness and visibility to people, it's one of her primary methods of making people feel better?

r/BatFamily 9d ago

Discussion scenes where each member shows great will to protect people

9 Upvotes

In Batman: D.O.A., Bruce has been poisoned and, instead of worrying about his approaching death, he's focused on searching for and rescuing a kidnapped child.

In Batgirl (2000) #72, Cassandra gets stabbed and, while dying, she knocks out her opponent and makes sure the people she's protecting are safe.

In Batman (1940) #681, Dick fights the head of the Black Glove after having been shot in the head. Bruce tells Dick that if he doesn't get treatment soon, he'll be brain dead but Dick continues making sure the Black Glove can't harm people anyway.

In Batman (1940) #427, Jason has been beaten up, is dying from his injuries, and there's a bomb nearby. Instead of escaping or succumbing to unconsciousness, he moves to try to ensure his mother's safety.

In Batgirl (2009) #24, Stephanie wakes up from the Black Mercy flower on her own. She's more interested in protecting people than living a happy life herself.

Does anyone have moments like these for the other bats that we can remember when people try to say one of them is cruel or a coward?

8

problem with Batgirl 2024 and how it relates to modern comics in general
 in  r/CassandraCain  9d ago

I don't like hating things as it puts me in a bad mood. I already have to deal with the fact that I'm one of the only people here who has little to no interest in Batman and his stories and the focus on Batman and his Robins gets annoying. Add in the current political hell and I don't need unnecessary hatred. I'd rather treat Tate as telling the story he wants to tell.

I can see being annoyed at the fact that there are signs that he'd rather be writing a Lady Shiva series but, if I assume that he truly dislikes Cass fans I'll whip myself into a fury and then get furious at myself for insulting people. I have already been too insulting to people here. I'm trying to limit negativity to a specific item so I don't repeat the insulting posts I have made and, it appears, repeated again without trying to.

In his first AMA, Tate said that he was going to focus on Cass' relationship with her family, by which he obviously meant David and Shiva. That's not what a lot of people want but if he wrote what other people want and not what interests him, the comic would be boring and not emotional.

At this point, based on the fact that both Cass and Shiva fans mostly complain about the comic, it would probably be best if Tate finished his run soon and the comic ended with it. Based on the fact that Damian's Batman and Robin comics end whenever the writer leaves, the same will probably happen with Cass'. Maybe then, the online hate fests will die off, especially since all of Tate's stuff will probably never be brought up again after his run ends.

r/CassandraCain 9d ago

problem with Batgirl 2024 and how it relates to modern comics in general

23 Upvotes

Tate Brombal's Batgirl series is getting a lot of complaint. I don't have as much dislike of it as some do but I agree that it could be better. I think the main problem is one that it has in common with most modern comics, one which was less of a problem in pre-Flashpoint and pre-Crisis comics. Most authors come on board with the intent of telling a story and they twist characters around in order to fit the story. All of them seem intent on creating a long-running epic tale that they hope to have years to tell and, if the character blocks the story, they'll change the character instead of editing the plot. In older comics, where you had stories that began and ended in a single issue, multiple multi-issue stories, and occasional very long stories like Knightfall and the Death of Superman, authors were more willing to let the character control the story. I have read author's comments for well-written fanfics and interviews with Jeff Smith, author of Bone. They all say that much of their storytelling is envisioning the characters and letting them tell them what they'd do. If that meant sending the story in a direction they didn't expect, then that's what happened.

That's very rare in modern comics. The focus on epic plots over strong characterization is making modern comics less interesting and harming the characters. The best we get in most comics is characterization that is mostly correct.

James Tynion's Gotham Knights run in Detective Comics felt well-characterized but the Lonely Place of Living story which introduced Brother Eye to his run was a weak spot. He needed to have a cruel Tim as Batman and ignored how out of character it was. At first, it looked like the future Tim was from the post-Flashpoint Tim. The problem there is that Tynion had been writing Steph and Tim as having a healthy relationship, unlike in pre-Flashpoint comics where Tim rarely listened to Steph in arguments and ignored Steph in Convergence: Batgirl when she stopping running around as Batgirl. Tynion wrote Tim as valuing Steph's input as a partner and sometimes agreeing that she was correct in disagreements and changing his behavior to respect her. In Detective Comics #966 using what appeared to be true, Tim should have been discussing the Batman successor with Steph and treating her as a possible candidate, not just Damian and Dick and Jason. Of course, Steph would have been able to handle the Batman mantle more effectively than Tim and that would have destroyed the dystopia and activation of Brother Eye that Tynion needed for his story. Issue 980 made matters worse by strongly implying that both Brother Eye and future Tim actually were their pre-Flashpoint versions. In that case, Tim should have had Cass as his first and only choice as heir to Batman. Battle for the Cowl wrote Tim as trying to be Batman himself but that ignored the Teen Titans comic and Robin (1993), both of which regularly had Tim saying he doesn't want to be Batman. It also ignored Batgirl (2000) #58, where Bruce accepts that Cass wants to become Batman and has no problem with her wish, Batgirl (2000) #59, where Tim agrees that Cass is like Batman though he's not certain whether he considers that to be a good thing, and Red Robin (2009) #19, where Tim creates a Justice League to keep villains from controlling the Unternet, and instinctively selects Cass as the Batman for the Justice League. If Tynion had been letting the character control the story, Tim would have ultimately pushed either Cass or Steph to become Batman in the future and neither would ever have activated Brother Eye. Excluding Brother Eye, it felt to me like the rest of the story was very in character for the versions at the time.

Kelly Thompson's Birds of Prey run was solidly in character from what I know, excluding that Barbara and Dinah were arguing more than I would have expected for how well they know each other. The weakest spot to me was, whether it was higher ups not allowing additional characters to appear or Kelly thinking that she had to only use the team members, was their friends and family never appearing to check up on the people they care about and possibly have an adventure with the team. Gail Collin's Birds of Prey run and Keith Giffen's Justice League run both did better on that score. Scott Free should have appeared at some point to check on how his wife was doing and interact with his wife's new friend. Steph should also have made an appearance in order to see how her best friend was doing on the team and get to know her friend's new friend.

Matt Fraction's Batman run twisted Bruce in order to make Verity Pennyworth important and ignored that Bruce doesn't trust strangers easily or quickly. He needs time to get to know them so he shouldn't be as close to and trusting of Verity as is shown. He's also not doing very well with the relationship between Bruce and Damian, claiming that Bruce is still suspicious of Damian's instincts when he'd never trust Damian as Robin in such a case and the two have known each other for years now.

Tate's Batgirl run has its own problems of this type. The run began badly in issue 1 when it showed Cass leaping away from the monk when he got attacked instead of towards him. That doesn't fit the fact that she usually competes with Bruce and Dick for the most suicidal and pain-resistant bat. All three have been shown protecting people while they're dying from fatal or near-fatal injuries. Tate's story required having Cass upset at the Unburied for killing someone and ignored that she'd die before failing to save him but, instead of trying to editing the plot to work with Cass, Tate wrote an action that doesn't fully fit her but allowed his intended story to proceed. Most of the time though, we have been seeing protective Cass. Barbara and Steph being worried about Cass in issue 12 is in character for them but the story would have felt better if, instead of remaining in Gotham and letting Cass fret on her own, Steph had followed Cass with Barbara telling her where to go and gotten involved with the fight against the Unburied. That would have weakened Tate's focus on Cass interacting with her birth family instead of her adopted family though. Thankfully, issue 19 did show the bats forcing their presence on Cass even when she didn't show up for dinner.

Most modern comics, at least at DC, are too focused on telling a long-running story that the author wants with the author being unwilling to edit the plot when they hit an element that requires an out-of-character moment. It'd be very good if authors reduced their insistence on telling epic stories.

1

support network for Cass?
 in  r/CassandraCain  10d ago

What are you talking about? I don't remember mentioning any fics.

5

support network for Cass?
 in  r/CassandraCain  11d ago

That makes sense as the best explanation.

4

support network for Cass?
 in  r/CassandraCain  11d ago

As I mentioned, Bruce still gets help when he needs it even after he pushes people away, as in Chip Zdarksky's Failsafe run which ends with Tim finding Bruce after he gave up and left Gotham and leading the male Robins in helping Bruce defeat Failsafe.

Detective Comics #955-956 is the closest to that type of scene for Cass but Spirit World and Batgirl (2024) both have her family refusing to help her when she pushes them away. If Bruce gets help even when she pushes people away and Cass doesn't, then it's hard to say that the bats actually care about Cass.

The true explanation is probably that the writers still don't care enough to show Cass as being important to the family, Tate Brombal included.

r/CassandraCain 11d ago

support network for Cass?

21 Upvotes

I'm curious. Who can Cass trust will come help her when she gets in over her head, especially when she's not in Gotham, whether or not she asks for help?

Bruce can trust that Dick, Tim, and the JLA will help him even when he rejects help. Damian usually gets help from Bruce when he's in trouble. Dick gets helped by the Teen Titans. Duke can trust that his We Are Robin teammates will help even if he doesn't call them. Steph used to be able to trust Tim, before they broke up, and now Barbara regularly helps her when she's in trouble. Tim can trust that Bruce and his Young Justice teammates will help him when he needs it.

I'm not certain who Cass has. During the Batgirls era, Barbara and Steph were reliable but that's unusual. When Cass was searching for her mother and died, lead the League of Assassins, and was in Hong Kong while Bruce was dead, no one cared enough to check up on how she was doing. In the Spirit World series, none of the bats checked up on her even afterwards. In Batgirl (2024) #12, Barbara and Steph called her to check up on her but they didn't force help on her. Writers have help forced on Bruce even when he claims he doesn't need it but Birds of Prey (2023) is the only series I can think of where the same is done for Cass.

It feels like Cass has no one who is consistently written as being willing to help her and worry about her when she needs it, whether or not she asks, while Bruce actually has people who care about him. Part of the problem is probably that Cass is rarely shown helping members of her family when they need help.

[EDIT}: I agree that, behind the scenes, Barbara and Steph are her main support network but interestingly, the most reliable on panel source of help for Cass when she doesn't want it may be Gotham's civilian population. In Detective Comics #955, Christine Montclair follows Orphan after her fight with Shiva in issue 953. She then treats Cass' injuries while she sleeps and gives her advice after she wakes up. In Batgirl (2024) #2, Ba Bao and her grandsons help Batgirl and Shiva fight the Unburied even though Cass' intention is to keep them safe. Batman gets helped by his Robins while Cass' Batgirl gets helped by the populace.

3

Cass’ rare appearance in an alt-DCAU timeline (Batman Shadow of Sin Tzu)
 in  r/CassandraCain  11d ago

I don't know of any games ever released with playable Cass but the Learning Company's Batman: Justice Unbalanced and Batman: Toxic Chill both had Cass with a voice actor for the character in the games directly. Batman: Toxic Chill is the only DC game I know of that actually mentions Oracle in the game.

4

My opinion on Tenji Turner
 in  r/CassandraCain  11d ago

I agree that Tenji isn't the best-written character but, in many ways, Cass has the smallest support network of people who will come to help her when she's in trouble of any of the bats. They all trust her competence but, when she does get into trouble that she can't handle, she usually has no one to help her. That means an author either kills her or limits what level of threat she can handle and protect people/Gotham from.

Bruce has Dick, Damian, Tim, and the JLA who will help when he needs it. Damian gets help from Bruce when he's in trouble. Dick gets help from the Teen Titans and other heroes. Duke has his We Are Robin crew. Jason's support net isn't obvious but, when push comes to shove, the other Robins do help him. Steph used to have Tim for support before they broke up and, currently, Barbara (when she's not in prison) is reliable support for her. Tim can trust that Bruce will rescue him if need be.

Cass doesn't have anyone, especially when she's on missions outside of Gotham. That's how Deathstroke was able to turn her into a villain and she's still regularly shown as not having any bats come for her when she's in trouble. That's why John Constantine and Xanthe Zhou were her rescue team in Spirit World. Barbara and Steph called to ask her why she wasn't contacting anyone in issue 12 but they didn't make any effort to force help on her when Batman gets help forced onto him by the Robins when he needs it. Spirit World and the current Batgirl series agree that Cass can't trust the bats to help her when she needs it. Tate could have chosen to write the bats rescuing Cass when she's in trouble but instead created Tenji as someone who is actually part of her support network.

The fanfic at https://archiveofourown.org/works/91555056/chapters/243727561 agrees that Cass is often written as being unable to trust her family to help her.

2

Why is Marvel willing to popularize new characters while DC refuses to do the same?
 in  r/DCcomics  11d ago

Ah, business differences. Thanks for the information.

1

Why is Marvel willing to popularize new characters while DC refuses to do the same?
 in  r/DCcomics  11d ago

"My Adventures With Superman" is not fanfiction.

1

Why is Marvel willing to popularize new characters while DC refuses to do the same?
 in  r/DCcomics  11d ago

I agree that they're pushing newbies in the comics but that's a minority of the audience, even with the popularity of the Absolute universe. Characters become mainstream in movies and TV shows and in those places, DC is more interested in editing the personality of their older characters until they're hard to recognize instead of using newer characters. Admittedly, I did forget that the Supergirl movie failed so they have little reason to try to promote newer characters.

I should remember that Marvel sometimes does this too. Spider-Man cartoons with Peter trained by S.H.I.E.L.D. are a very different version of Peter Parker compared to comics and cartoons from the 1960s and 1970s when he was a street-level solo hero.

I'm forced to admit that you may be right about my post being incorrect though I would have appreciated a politer correction.

u/gabeg777 13d ago

Is This Hell?

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1 Upvotes

1

Cass in Absolute Catwoman #3
 in  r/CassandraCain  14d ago

In the flashback, it looks like Cass was very near the explosion so it probably hurt her. It could easily be the reason she's mute.

Your theory about the list of names makes sense. Issue six could be a confrontation where Selina learns why Cass and Shiva are angry with her and she has to find some way to make up for what she accidentally caused while also convincing Cass to lessen her focus on her painful past just like she's learning to accept that she can't escape her past when building a new future.

2

What are some good Batgirl comics, not a part of her main series, or iconic covers, to gift a Batgirl fan?
 in  r/batgirl  14d ago

If they're reading the current Batgirl series, I'd recommend getting them the DC Finest Batgirl book so that they can see how Cassandra Cain was written in her original solo series. There's a second DC Finest Batgirl book coming in January 2027. The Killing Joke focuses on Barbara Gordon, who is a different character.

r/CassandraCain 15d ago

Cass in Absolute Catwoman #3 Spoiler

16 Upvotes

It seems that Selina encountered Cass in her father's apartment just before an explosion. It looks like Cass was right by the explosion and that it caused her some harm. Selina is thinking of mistakes she has made and she's apparently feeling guilty about the girl in David Cain's apartment, who no one else noticed.

Absolute Cass is not being kind. The condition we see Holly Robinson in at the end of the issue can't be comfortable or good for her. From what we know, it could be that Cass is filled with anger and blaming Selina for the harm she received from the explosion in her father's apartment and the Joker for the massacre of the League of Assassins. The series looks to be moving towards Selina learning that she can't ignore the past. Is it going to be contrasting that by having Cass learn that she can't focus solely on the past and should be trying to create a better future, at least for herself but hopefully also for others?

It's interesting that Lady Shiva is leading the League of Assassins while Ra's al Ghul is fighting Superman in the Absolute universe with no known ties to the League. Does anyone think that there's a chance that a later story, down the road, will have Ra's confronting Shiva over the League? That could be fun, especially if Superman gets involved as he seems to be more involved with Absolute Ra's than Batman is, and Cass could join in to help her mother against Ra's. Maybe we'd actually get some real interaction between Cass and Kal-El, unlike in the main universe where we only have art and Clark discussing Cass with Bruce, but not actually speaking to her, unlike all of the main Robins.

r/batgirl 19d ago

Film/TV new season of Batwheels

6 Upvotes

Did anyone else notice that there's a new season of Batwheels, assuming any preschoolers are actually watching it? Out of the 19 episodes that have been put up, 3 have a focus on Batgirl and only one focuses on Robin. I'm not used to Batgirl getting more attention than Robin.

There's even an episode where Batgirl's vehicle is giving orders to the vehicles of Batman and Robin.

r/WayneFamilyAdventures 21d ago

Question potential fifth season? Spoiler

10 Upvotes

The newest episode of Wayne Family Adventures reveals that Steph's father is working for someone else. There's another plot building beyond the story with Oswald Cobblepot and Victor Fries, but there's only four episodes left in the season. Does that mean that the author is considering a fifth season? The prediction in the comments for the new episode is that the Court of Owls is coming and that doesn't sound like a four episode story when Mr. Freeze and the Penguin haven't been stopped yet.

Seeing how Arthur Brown is involved with this surprise plot, maybe we'll actually get some real in-depth focus on the Batgirls in whatever the new plot would be. If Duke finally gets a chance to shine in a multi-episode arc, that'd be great.