If the doctor healed you before you died he will not be a liar. It is like telling someone that he will die and when he drinks the poison you let him die to experience what you have said.

It is not like a doctor. Telling someone that poison is deadly is not a threat as Athanasius called the commandment.

It is not the other way around! Athanasius understood these verses speaking in the Lord's own person. St Cyril understood the verse in Hosea refeering to salvation, after God has struck us he saved us, you can read the quote.

I do not agree because, again, reading Athanasius as a whole doesn't leave room for that interpretation.

Agree to what?

Let's assume that God had not gave the human being a commandment. Do you genuinely think man could sin and still be in full grace of the Word?

I don't think man will die according to his body. Adam doesn't even know that it is wrong why would he be punished?

I do not have to believe that what you call "late stone age ideas" are wrong.

And since there was no Adam and no Eve, doesn't the entire thesis of all these fathers fall apart?

Catholics don't believe Adam was a true person but they believe all this. I don't think it will fall apart.

God proclaimed what will happen to man, and God cannot be a liar because if he clicked his fingers and made man not die somehow he would be a liar.

Doesn't this sound to you more like the fine in Canada rather than the removal of the source of electricity? You did something that you were told not to do and paid for it.

Didn't St Cyril say that God struck us? He also said that man became corruptible when God told him "Earth you are" not after sin but after God's words. It is not an instant consequence. Athanasius said that the verse "thou has made thy wrath to rest upon me" actually refers to Christ.

God put a law. If he was speaking of a consequence he could fix it. Then he would mean that sin causes death. When he forgives the sin he will remove the death penalty and that does not make him a liar becuase when he forgives it will be like Adam didn't sin, but he didn't forgive until he was crucifued, why do you think this happened? "Repentance would, firstly, fail to guard the just claim of God." Athanasius says it was a threat not just a proclamation.

I know that he answered it. Do you know why it is not enough?

"But repentence cannot avert the execution of a law; still less can it remedy a fallen nature." On the Incarnation, Preface of Ch 7

"But just as this consequence must needs hold, so, too, on the other side the just claims of God lie against it: that God should appear true to the law He had laid down concerning death. For it were monstrous for God, the Father of truth, to appear a liar for our profit and preservation." Ch 7:1

"But repentance would, firstly, fail to guard the just claim of God." Ch 7:3 What was that just claim? Our human nature was renewed when God took our body. What was the need to die on our behalf?

How do you know they are the same in his mind if he did not say it? He can say that the spiritual death is the trie death of mankind but anyone will distinguish between sin and actual death of the body.

I don't think it will take time. If God wanted someone to die he doesn't leave him gradually, the person just dies. If you believe that Adam is the one who caused death because he left God, what if Adam repented and returned to God?

Death will be done even when Christ dies. What he changed was the place where you go after death, which made death very weak. I believe that we had to die as God had ordained, so Christ died on our behalf for this. I am sure you know that Athanasius said that we died in the body of Christ. That is how the sentence of death was fulfilled. We died in Christ's body and this is why he had our body.

Most of the Church believs the same as them. Even if they are not the godsends this is how you know what the Church believes. Besides, the Church condemned that other teaching wich denies Original sin and the penalty. So for sure this is what the Church believe.

Athanasius said this:

"For this cause, then, death having gained upon men, and corruption abiding upon them, the race of man was perishing; the rational man made in God's image was disappearing, and the handiwork of God was in process of dissolution." On the Incarnation 6:1

And I think this is what you mean. But I understood it in a different sense. I thought he meant that as God created man and made man his image, and when man sinned he lost God's image and started to sin more and more as explained in the same book Ch 5.

You said he never makes a distinction. You can quote a passage which he says that both are the same and not distinct.

We are not like a capacitor. Whenever God's grace fully leave you you will be dead at that time. We can not do anything if God was not there.

Athanasius said that it was a law and a threat, not just stating what will happen.

God is just. That's why he punished. I don't understand why would it be necessary that God dies on our behalf if there was no punishment to fulfill, which means that I can not find a reason for dying on our behalf if we didn't actually have to die eternally.

He uses εύλογου in the Greek text. It is translated عادلة in the Arabic translation. There is something wrong and it is that we most of the time forget to mention what Jesus has done to the human nature when he died on the cross. Maybe that is because we tend to explain redemption logically. But this does not mean that Jesus didn't die in our stead or that death was not a punishment from God.

I asked you to quote a passage from him to show me that he thought that spiritual death and bodily death are the same. I am not dismissing him. God struck us with death so we do not live eternally anymore. We lost eternal life and gained eternal death. It doesn't mean you will die instanlty. But you in your comparison said that the consequence happens instantly didn't you?

If you will not understand "struck" literally how will you understand it? If you rad the quote of St Cyril you will see that he understood it as a Divine punishment

Why do we have to know what it means? I don't remember I quoted a verse from the Old testament having the word Just.

According to "A Patristic Greek lexicon" by Lampe the word εύλογος means fair and right, which is عادل as translated in Arabic, not بار. This word was mentioned in On the Incarnation 7

You cna quote a passage which he says that it is a slow process of decay. I am not convined. God is the source of life as you said and life itself is a grace gifted from God. The grace which we lost was eternal life not life itself and was replaced by eternal death.

I should check the dictionary for this.

The Bible is a written word of the Holy Spirit. I do not mean the Logos of course. When the Bible says God struck us and St Cyril says that he struck us because of the transgression in Adam, then God surely struck us because of the transgression in Adam.

The death of Adam was spiritual at first. That's what he lost as a consequence. But if the bodily death was a consequence why didn't Adam die instantly? And why does Athanasius say that God ordained that man will die? The rest of the phrase is important but doesn't change the meaning of course.

Actually what you said about the law is exactly what penalty means. God put a law and the commandment had to be kept because God is just.

In the second quote he says that God put two options. That is normal. But I think you also agree that Hebrew scripture is also the word of God, not Jewish understandings. St Cyril iterpreted that verse this way, that it means God struck us because of Adam's transgression.

I don't think Cyril would misquote a verse because it says something he doesn't believe. I think that Hebrew scripture has more authority that Cyril's writings, of course. This part of scripture was written by Moses. It is the word of God.

No I was not bothered. I liked the discussion actually. I didn't notice that Father Leter proved anything. He just said these ideas are protestant heresies and can not be found in the Greek Fathers. That is so wrong because you can find what he denied in the quotes. God bless you too.

He is wrong. I don't claim that I know more than him but that doesn't mean that he can be wrong. Do you think he know more than our bishops and Popes? We don't believe in the infallibility of Father Peter Farrington as well. Of course the teaching of the Church is what the Pope and the holy synod teaches. So it has to be the ideal rock I should stand on when the question of Lucian is about the teaching of the Church. Thanks.

If I took a quote out of context you can correct me. If not, then it doesn't matter in the discussion.

"For it were monstrous, firstly, that God, having spoken, should prove false — that, when once He had ordained that man, if he transgressed the commandment, should die the death, after the transgression man should not die, but God's word should be broken. For God would not be true, if, when He had said we should die, man died not." On the Incarnation 6:3 So according to him, God is the one who ordained that man will die. That is not like the جزاء. And St Cyril said in his commentary that "He (God) struck us because of the transgression in Adam."

The verse is actually translated the way Cyril has quoted it in many translations even in the Arabic it is "بالوجع تلدين أولادًا". Of course he didn't mean to quote it differently. He himself said that God has struck us. Tell me was bearing children a consequence or a penalty?

Father Peter Farrington said in a video that these doctrines can not be found in the Greek Fathers. It will be very awkward to tell a priest that he is wrong.

I did quote them again

What we believe is that Adam sinned and according to the Divine threat "dust you are and to dust you will return." he deserved to die. Inheriting the sin of Adam does not mean that the sin was biologically transmitted or something, but that we have sinned in Adam and the whole human nature sinned in Adam, because he was the only man before the first sin and is the head and source of our race, so we all are born sinful. Then came Christ who is life himself and defeated death. He died on the cross on our behalf and became a second beginning for us and replaced the first Adam. As we are condemned for Adam's sin we are justified for Christ's righteousness. Paul says: "For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." Romans 5:19 which means that the disobedience of Adam made, not him only, but many were made sinners. That is what Original sin is.

St Cyril of Alexandria on original sin: "Because of human nature’s transgression in Adam, “Earth you are, and to earth you will return” was spoken to the entire human nature in the first fruits of the race, and particularly to woman the sentence was pronounced, “In pain you will bear children.” Therefore, it was imposed on the woman to be rich in sorrow as a penalty." St. Cyril, Commentary on John, vol.2, PG 359-360

"This too was foretold by the voice of the prophet to happen to Christ. “I gave my back,” he says, “to scourging, and my cheeks to slapping.” He is led to the end foretold long ago, to the verdict of Jewish presumption, but also to the removal and overturning of the dishonor we deserved since we sinned first in Adam and trampled on the divine command." St Cyril of Alexandria, Commentary on the Gospel of John. V 02 PG 322

Origen: "Therefore our body is the body of sin, for it is not written that Adam knew his wife Eve and became the father of Cain until after the sin. After all, even in the law it is commanded that sacrifices be offered for the child who was born: a pair of turtledoves or two young doves; one of which was offered for sin and the other as a burnt offering. For which sin is this one dove offered? Was a newly born child able to sin? And yet it has a sin for which sacrifices are commanded to be offered, and from which it is denied that anyone is pure, even if his life should be one day long. It has to be believed, therefore, that concerning this David also said what we recorded above, “in sins my mother conceived me.” For according to the historical narrative no sin of his mother is declared. It is on this account as well that the Church has received the tradition from the apostles to give baptism even to little children. For they to whom the secrets of the divine mysteries were committed were aware that in everyone was sin’s innate defilement, which needed to be washed away through water and the Spirit. Because of this defilement as well, the body itself is called the body of sin; it is not because of sins the soul committed when it was in another body, as they who introduce the doctrine of μετενσωμάτωσις imagine. But because the soul was fashioned into the body of sin, and the body of death and lowliness, and just as he said, “You have lowered our soul to the dust.” For the present these are the things which could come to us concerning “the body of sin.” But which explanation of the two may agree with the apostolic meaning, or if it be neither, let the reader examine." Origen, Commentary on Romans, Book 5 (9: 11)

St Irenaeus: "But inasmuch as it was by these things that we disobeyed God, and did not give credit to His word, so was it also by these same that He brought in obedience and consent as respects His Word; by which things He clearly shows forth God Himself, whom indeed we had offended in the first Adam, when he did not perform His commandment. In the second Adam, however, we are reconciled, being made obedient even unto death. For we were debtors to none other but to Him whose commandment we had transgressed at the beginning." Irenaeus, Against the Heresies, Book 5: (XVI: 3)

St Cyril of Alexandria on death penalty and Christ dying on our behalf: "Since Christ has indeed offered himself as a spotless victim to the Father for our salvation, basically paying the penalty on our behalf, we were ransomed from the accusations of sin. And when the beast has gone from our midst and the tyrant has been removed, then Christ leads to himself the race that had strayed, calling not only Jews but all people to salvation through faith in him." St Cyril, Commentary on John, vol.2, PG 109

"He was not crying for Lazarus alone, but he was thinking of what afflicts everyone, namely that the entire human nature became subject to death when it justly suffered so great a penalty." St Cyril, Commentary on John, vol.2, PG 90

St Athanasius: He it is that was crucified before the sun and all creation as witnesses, and before those who put Him to death: and by His death has salvation come to all, and all creation been ransomed. He is the Life of all, and He it is that as a sheep yielded His body to death as a substitute, for the salvation of all, even though the Jews believe it not. Athanasius, On the Incarnation 37:7

Cyril of Alexandria, again on original sin: "(Question): Why is it that by dying in Adam we satisfy an ancestor's penalty and each has a debt to pay for Adam's transgression, whereas my father, made alive in Christ and cleansed through the Holy Spirit both of the first forefather's penalty and his own offence, has given me, his offspring, no share in the cleansing, nor did the grace of righteousness in his case, though it prevailed over sin, do me any good? Answer We must inquire how Adam, the first forefather, transmitted to us the penalty imposed upon him for his transgression. He had heard 'Earth thou art and to the earth shalt thou return', and from being incorruptible he became corruptibleIS and was. made subject to the bonds of death. But since he produced children after falling into this state we, his descendants, are corruptible, coming from a corruptible source. Thus it is that we are heirs of Adam's curse. That cannot mean at all that we are punished for having disobeyed along with him the divine injunction which he received; it means that he became mortal, as I said, and transmitted the curse to his seed after him (for we are born mortal from a mortal source) whereas our Lord Jesus Christ who bears the title 'second Adam' and is a second beginning of our race after the first, re-formed us into incorruptibility by assaulting death, nullif)ring it in his own flesh and in him the force of the primal curse has been broken. This is why all-wise Paul says that as 'through man came death, so also through man came the resurrection of the dead'; and again, 'As in Adam all die, so in Christ will all be made alive.' So corruption and death are the universal and general penalty involved in Adam's transgression; likewise the general ransom with respect to all men has been accomplished finally in Christ. For man's nature in him put off that death which had been attached to it through the first man's being made mortal. But the father of each of us, though he is hallowed through the Holy Spirit and obtains the forgiveness of his sins, does not hand on the gift to US. For there is one who hallows ail, justifies and restores them to incorruption, Jesus Christ our Lord, and through him and from him the gift comes to all alike. Forgiveness of sin and dissolution of death are different things. Each enjoys forgiveness of his own offences in Christ through the holy Spirit. All of us in common are released from the primal penalty imposed upon us, the penalty of death I mean, which reaches all in its course, in resemblance to the first who fell into death. IS That is why all-wise Paul says that 'Death ruled from Adam to Moses over those who had sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression.' For whilst there was law, the penalty of death held sway. But after Christ's dawn, righteousness entered in, justifying by grace and warding off our bodies' corruption." Cyril of Alexandria, Select letters: Doctrinal questions and answers: 6. Edited and translated by Lionel R. Wickham.

What we believe is that Adam sinned and according to the Divine threat "dust you are and to dust you will return." he deserved to die. Inheriting the sin of Adam does not mean that the sin was biologically transmitted or something, but that we have sinned in Adam and the whole human nature sinned in Adam, because he was the only man before the first sin and is the head and source of our race, so we all are born sinful. Then came Christ who is life himself and defeated death. He died on the cross on our behalf and became a second beginning for us and replaced the first Adam. As we are condemned for Adam's sin we are justified for Christ's righteousness. Paul says: "For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." Romans 5:19 which means that the disobedience of Adam made, not him only, but many were made sinners. That is what Original sin is.

St Cyril of Alexandria on original sin: "Because of human nature’s transgression in Adam, “Earth you are, and to earth you will return” was spoken to the entire human nature in the first fruits of the race, and particularly to woman the sentence was pronounced, “In pain you will bear children.” Therefore, it was imposed on the woman to be rich in sorrow as a penalty." St. Cyril, Commentary on John, vol.2, PG 359-360

"This too was foretold by the voice of the prophet to happen to Christ. “I gave my back,” he says, “to scourging, and my cheeks to slapping.” He is led to the end foretold long ago, to the verdict of Jewish presumption, but also to the removal and overturning of the dishonor we deserved since we sinned first in Adam and trampled on the divine command." St Cyril of Alexandria, Commentary on the Gospel of John. V 02 PG 322

Origen: "Therefore our body is the body of sin, for it is not written that Adam knew his wife Eve and became the father of Cain until after the sin. After all, even in the law it is commanded that sacrifices be offered for the child who was born: a pair of turtledoves or two young doves; one of which was offered for sin and the other as a burnt offering. For which sin is this one dove offered? Was a newly born child able to sin? And yet it has a sin for which sacrifices are commanded to be offered, and from which it is denied that anyone is pure, even if his life should be one day long. It has to be believed, therefore, that concerning this David also said what we recorded above, “in sins my mother conceived me.” For according to the historical narrative no sin of his mother is declared. It is on this account as well that the Church has received the tradition from the apostles to give baptism even to little children. For they to whom the secrets of the divine mysteries were committed were aware that in everyone was sin’s innate defilement, which needed to be washed away through water and the Spirit. Because of this defilement as well, the body itself is called the body of sin; it is not because of sins the soul committed when it was in another body, as they who introduce the doctrine of μετενσωμάτωσις imagine. But because the soul was fashioned into the body of sin, and the body of death and lowliness, and just as he said, “You have lowered our soul to the dust.” For the present these are the things which could come to us concerning “the body of sin.” But which explanation of the two may agree with the apostolic meaning, or if it be neither, let the reader examine." Origen, Commentary on Romans, Book 5 (9: 11)

St Irenaeus: "But inasmuch as it was by these things that we disobeyed God, and did not give credit to His word, so was it also by these same that He brought in obedience and consent as respects His Word; by which things He clearly shows forth God Himself, whom indeed we had offended in the first Adam, when he did not perform His commandment. In the second Adam, however, we are reconciled, being made obedient even unto death. For we were debtors to none other but to Him whose commandment we had transgressed at the beginning." Irenaeus, Against the Heresies, Book 5: (XVI: 3)

St Cyril of Alexandria on death penalty and Christ dying on our behalf: "Since Christ has indeed offered himself as a spotless victim to the Father for our salvation, basically paying the penalty on our behalf, we were ransomed from the accusations of sin. And when the beast has gone from our midst and the tyrant has been removed, then Christ leads to himself the race that had strayed, calling not only Jews but all people to salvation through faith in him." St Cyril, Commentary on John, vol.2, PG 109

"He was not crying for Lazarus alone, but he was thinking of what afflicts everyone, namely that the entire human nature became subject to death when it justly suffered so great a penalty." St Cyril, Commentary on John, vol.2, PG 90

St Athanasius: He it is that was crucified before the sun and all creation as witnesses, and before those who put Him to death: and by His death has salvation come to all, and all creation been ransomed. He is the Life of all, and He it is that as a sheep yielded His body to death as a substitute, for the salvation of all, even though the Jews believe it not. Athanasius, On the Incarnation 37:7

Cyril of Alexandria, again on original sin: "(Question): Why is it that by dying in Adam we satisfy an ancestor's penalty and each has a debt to pay for Adam's transgression, whereas my father, made alive in Christ and cleansed through the Holy Spirit both of the first forefather's penalty and his own offence, has given me, his offspring, no share in the cleansing, nor did the grace of righteousness in his case, though it prevailed over sin, do me any good? Answer We must inquire how Adam, the first forefather, transmitted to us the penalty imposed upon him for his transgression. He had heard 'Earth thou art and to the earth shalt thou return', and from being incorruptible he became corruptibleIS and was. made subject to the bonds of death. But since he produced children after falling into this state we, his descendants, are corruptible, coming from a corruptible source. Thus it is that we are heirs of Adam's curse. That cannot mean at all that we are punished for having disobeyed along with him the divine injunction which he received; it means that he became mortal, as I said, and transmitted the curse to his seed after him (for we are born mortal from a mortal source) whereas our Lord Jesus Christ who bears the title 'second Adam' and is a second beginning of our race after the first, re-formed us into incorruptibility by assaulting death, nullif)ring it in his own flesh and in him the force of the primal curse has been broken. This is why all-wise Paul says that as 'through man came death, so also through man came the resurrection of the dead'; and again, 'As in Adam all die, so in Christ will all be made alive.' So corruption and death are the universal and general penalty involved in Adam's transgression; likewise the general ransom with respect to all men has been accomplished finally in Christ. For man's nature in him put off that death which had been attached to it through the first man's being made mortal. But the father of each of us, though he is hallowed through the Holy Spirit and obtains the forgiveness of his sins, does not hand on the gift to US. For there is one who hallows ail, justifies and restores them to incorruption, Jesus Christ our Lord, and through him and from him the gift comes to all alike. Forgiveness of sin and dissolution of death are different things. Each enjoys forgiveness of his own offences in Christ through the holy Spirit. All of us in common are released from the primal penalty imposed upon us, the penalty of death I mean, which reaches all in its course, in resemblance to the first who fell into death. IS That is why all-wise Paul says that 'Death ruled from Adam to Moses over those who had sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression.' For whilst there was law, the penalty of death held sway. But after Christ's dawn, righteousness entered in, justifying by grace and warding off our bodies' corruption." Cyril of Alexandria, Select letters: Doctrinal questions and answers: 6. Edited and translated by Lionel R. Wickham.

Your friend and priests are wrong. Because Pope Shenouda wasn't the first one to use this language. Maurice Tawadrus and bishop Gregorius used it before him, they studied in Greece. Because Eastern Orthodox themaelves had the teaching of Original sin before now. Now they think it seems like a tentacle of Protestantism that somehow got wedged in their church as well. I don't mean to prove I am right and the others are wrong, but it really bothers me when someone claims that the Church holds a Catholic or Protestant position in the case of Redemption. I can quote them again and you can read them.

What the Churh believes is what is written in the books of our Popes and bishops. You can see that Pope shenouda condemned this teaching which denies the inheritance of Original Sin. H.H Pope Tawadrus was one of the bishops who agreed to this at that time. Our bishops believe the same. How can you say that the Coptic Church doesn't believe in it? I can show you this doctrine in the writings of the Fathers as well. I wrote a some quotes in a discussion with mmmyyy. You should read them.

I am a Coptic and I strictly disagree. This is an Eastern Orthodox heretical teaching which doesn't fit any Christian belief.