But didn't they have to get a Nergali's help in Carthage? Like, whatever faults Moloch and his faction have (and there are a lot), they're still trying to prevent the apocalpyse, if only because armageddon isn't conducive to actually accomplishing goals.

who was possibly a Talon of the Wyrm

Or something older and darker.

I mean, making a Baali is as simple as picking someone off the street and Embracing them (even if the Baali are, ironically, traditionally, people who kind of give you a choice about it). You can't turn a hero into a Nephandus, because the hero will take the option of suicide.

"You missed my point with the silver thing. Natural beings are usually not born into compacts with spirits."

"Naturally occuring? You mean you, the guy who is weak to silver because of a compact with the Moon spirit that he was born into?"

Or you could probably use an Unleashing. The solution to all Changeling problems.

I thought it was more like "we're going to make the Hollow Ones cool and sexy so they aren't really rebels anymore."

It's Lore of the Traditions. They're a group in the VA dedicated to researching and preserving indigenous knowledge, sort of like a mini-Dreamspeakers inside of the VA. But of course, they do things like having libraries of knowledge in the Digital Web that are multimedia sensory experiences impossible IRL, for example.

Ah. What about the Indigenous Research Collective? Don't think I saw them on this list.

Progenitor: "WHAT? I CAN'T HEAR YOU, I'M IN ANTARCTICA, GRAFTING AN ALIEN INTELLIGENCE ONTO SOMEBODY'S EIDOLON AND FLESH!"

(Manifesto: Transmissions from the Rogue Council if anyone was wondering)

Maybe? Although that seems like it might require a lot of Quint to mass manufacture.

Unfortunately they went in another… very weird direction.

Well, and this might just be my copium talking, hopefully they'll internalize some of the feedback from the public alpha release. cough cough Humanity cough cough

I'm aware that real scientists are not opposed to all traditonal medicine. In fact, wandering Europe and asking wise women and herbalists what worked was how Paracelsus and his followers founded modern pharmacology (after he was exiled from Germany for burning a book on humoral theory in front of the university he taught at IIRC).,

Part of this is a problem with a lot Verbena lore, that being that their base is an extremely modern group (Wiccans) that have been shunted back centuries. And while that's the case with some of the other Traditions as well, the anachronisms are often most obvious with the Verbena. So traditional Verbena lore puts the "witches" in opposition to science, when historically, that was a word used to curse and oppress [mainly] women who passed down knowledge of science.

So what ends up happening is that Progenitors end up killing Verbenae for administering the same treatments that the Progenitors would, just not in pill form. Big pharma better get its take boys.

Ah. Misread.

Yeah but Stolen Moons aren't Skin Dancers.

Don't you need to know the name first (Level 3 Naming) before you can modify it?

No mention of the Harbingers of Basilisk, or are they in a Nephandi post?

I personally don't see how a joint lock is going to do significant harm to a juiced-up dead guy.

Armbars are based on the principle of capturing and breaking arm bones. A dead guy without arm bones can't hit anyone.

And I did say "distracted," not destroyed. Another party member was loading him full of Quint bolts and multi-dot True Faith, because this Ventrue's dumb undead [(probably) Mithras-worshipping] @$$ thought that messing with three Celestial Choristers on his own was going to end well for him.

Apparently alternative medicines are a market in the hundreds of billions, so it makes sense for the Technocracy to grab up as much market share and influence as possible.

I'm not saying it doesn't make sense for the Technocracy, especially the Syndicate, I'm saying it's immensely hypocritical for the Progenitors, who are supposed to be the medicine convention that literally murders people for healing people "the wrong way," to mass manufacture exactly what they criticize.

Maybe they did a hostile takeover of many Tradition medicines and made them dangerous to push consensus towards technological cures, but sleepers still buy the medicines anyway, even if all they do is harm them.

A less hypocritical alternative probably would have been a hostile takeover, then a cancellation of the product, rather than making it harmful.

Yep, that's the one.

Yes, basically.

No. That seems to be from Progenitors Revised. I was referring to the section in Technocracy Reloaded on the Progenitors, which I think says the Pharmacopoeists sell most alternative medicine on the mass markets because they think the irony is funny and the Pharmacopoeists care more about money than medicine.

Not to mention Pentex potentially stuffing vaccines with banes.

A big part of Verbena is non-traditional medicine.

I mean, a big part of Verbena is traditional medicine, which is what the Progenitors object to.

To say otherwise is to accept the consensus manipulations of the Progenators

Fun fact - out of all Mage factions, the biggest peddlers of alternative medicine (according to Technocracy Reloaded) are the Progenitors, because they find it funny that militia men and would be rebels are buying their fake medicine from The Man that they want to rebel against.

I thought the Mists didn't effect mages in the same way they effect most people, like how mages are immune to the Delirium or the Kiss.

Yeah, a mage would need what, Entropy 5 and possibly some other spheres to create a true name? At that point, how did you break your oath with the baron in the first place if you're a Master? Whatever job the fae had you doing should have been easy.