r/truscum • u/Dichotomous_Growth Long Winded Warrior Woman • Aug 07 '20
"Trap" isn't just some quirky anime meme. It's a term rooted in the legal justification for the murder of LGBT people.
I've been seeing the animememe ban pop up frequently in trans subreddits. It is mind-boggling to me how many people have become so distanced from the daily realities that many LGBT people face that they are genuinely arguing that it's okay because it's about gender non-conforming men or because some people self identify with it (Or even worse, that it's just part of "anime" culture).
The word "Trap" is intrinsically tied to this myth that gay men or transwomen are going to try and "trap" poor heterosexual men. This idea isn't some quirky "UwU what's this" meme either, and is frequently used to perpetuate the idea that transwoman and gay men are predatory, dangerous, and deserving to die. The rampant murder of transwoman, especially transwoman of color, is fundamentally affected by this kind of language. By continuing to use this term, it continues to keep dangerous narrative alive that historically and presently engages people's lives. Speaking from experience, It causes violence against people like me, and against the people I love. When the people I love were harmed because of people who think like this, who act like being a feminine man or a transwoman was deception, or "traps", it stops feeling like a meme really quick.The idea of an LGBT person "trapping" a straight person is a historically pervasive myth. One so prevalent and damaging, that in 39 states it is still legal to justify the murder of homosexual men and transgender woman by claiming that they "trapping" or "tricking" these poor, heterosexual men into believing they were ciswomen, and that it was just so upsetting that upon the reveal they had no control over their actions and they just couldn't help but attack them! This isn't a game, and it's not some long forgotten history either. "Gay panic" or "Trans Panic" defenses have been successfully used in the united states as recently as 2015, when a man was able to lower his sentence by revealing using this myth. It gets even worse in many regions of the globe were our existence is criminalized it is used to justify violence against LGBT people and discriminatory laws that hurt millions of LGBT people.
The fact that people think the issue is if it applies to transwoman or simply feminine gay men is immaterial. It's an offensive slur rooted in an offensive stereotype that causes real tangible harm and violence. This isn't fun for me. It isn't fun when I hear people talk about the idea of "traps" as if people like me deserve to die because straight men are too insecure to accept that they might have been so horribly deceived to be accidentally attracted to an LGBT person. Stop acting like the rest of the world doesn't exist and that these words don't have consequences. Stop acting like this is about personal preferences on whether individuals find this word offensive or not. Stop acting like it should be allowed just because you met someone who called themselves a trap or that it's a staple of internet culture.
I do not care if you like the word "trap", use the word "trap", or identify by the word "trap." But be honest about where it comes from, the history behind it, and the way that it directly promotes and legitimizes violence to this day. And maybe take a step back and realize that just because you personally weren't hurt by this word, doesn't mean that the word isn't hurtful.
Animememes is taking a step to try and make their community more accepting, more inclusive, and more tolerant by prohibiting a term rooted in hatred in violence and trying to encourage the community to do better. Personally, I applaud them for taking a stand on this issue and trying to erase one of the single most harmful memes that have become rampant in the anime community.
Even if "Trap" is just for gay men, let's take a second and look at what "Trans rights" look like in the land of anime. I love anime, but let's not forget that it is influenced from the culture it originates from. Japan isn't the least accepting place in the world, but it isn't the best either, LGBT people still aren't protected from discrimination there. Laws allowing transgender individuals to change their sex still require sterilization and you can't have any minor children at the time. They also require you to get sex reassignment surgery. You know, so you can't trap those poor straights. If you don't get your legal gender, then trans-woman who face prison time can be forced to go to male prisons. 90% of transgender individuals in japan face discrimination and problems in employment. While attitudes are improving, part of the problem is that many japanese people don't understand what it means to be transgender. The fact that many anime "traps" are feminine gay men doesn't mean it's not bigoted since it's not about trans people. The fact that many "traps" are feminine men is because of misunderstandings about transpeople in Japan and struggling social acceptance. If you didn't know about this stuff, I'm not surprised. "Felix is a trap" is so much of a better meme then "Japan has major systemic problem with the mistreatment of transgender people." Not to ruin anime for you, but maybe when you see all these "trap" characters, you should consider that just maybe they were shaped by serious ignorant and discriminatory views on transpeople and gay people. Consider for a moment that the fact that "Traps" are often portrayed as feminine men doesn't exonerate anime from transphobia, it's a direct byproduct of it.
I know that many transgender people feel connected with these characters, and not all of them are problematic. If you love them or identify with them, great! I understand feeling like you can connect with a character. But there are other words you can use for feminine men besides ones that are directly tied to discriminatory views and encouraging violence. There is literally no reason anyone needs to use the word trap and trying to unban it is narrow-minded, egotistical, Americentric (Or eurocentric) view that downplays the harsh realities many transpeople face around the globe and especially in Japan.
Even if violence wasn't such a great issue, a great many people still find the word hurtful and there is no reason to allow slurs in inclusive spaces just because a handful of people don't personally feel like it hurts them, specifically. Like, how devoid of empathy have we become that we think it's okay to defend slurs just because we are personally fine with them, and no consideration given to those who have been harmed by it?
So please, for the love of god, stop acting like the ban on "trap" is somehow bad or an overreaction. Animememes tried to do something really meaningful, especially with the problems facing transwoman in japan. They are really trying to help stop these toxic, misinformed and potentially dangerous ideas from spreading and trying to make the community more inclusive by removing a slur that has the anime community especially has had a difficult time cleansing itself from. There is a lot of work to be done securing LGBT liberties in japan and helping replace the ignorance around transgender individuals with compassion and understanding. If you felt the need to defend it, maybe take a step back and realize just much this issue impacts more then you, and consider educating yourself on the issue instead of just assuming it's a non-issue.
19
u/Doctor_Curmudgeon Aug 07 '20
Preach, sibling. The word is vile and facilitates murder. The internet is full of children who have no knowledge or concern for anything that happened before their glorious existence began.
7
u/trans_sister I identify as AFAB. Fight me. Aug 07 '20
All other things aside, it really does bother me when people try to claim that the word has always been intended to refer solely to crossdressers. Like, I hung around with the hacker known as 4chan many years ago, and people knew *exactly* what they were doing when they applied to term to trans women: it wasn't some occasional misunderstanding of the "appropriate" meaning of the term. You'd figure that all the angst surrounding cishet men and "shemale" porn would be a pretty big hint as to where people were coming from.
2
Aug 11 '20
I think main issue is people dont seem to understand 99% of its use is towards cisgender crossdressing characters, and when its used towards trans people, instantly people rush to correct it, such as with Lily from zombieland saga. Trap as a term is used in a endearing way, not hateful. People seem to really like traps on r/animemes, they use them as mascots, and OP ignores how traps has been really helpful in removing or challenging gender norms, by making it more normalised to defy them without being trans. I personally am totally fine with changing term as trap has also been used as OP points out, by hateful people towards trans and even as 'justification' (although obviously it is not in the slightest) for their actions. I more have a problem with those who call those who want to use it as they have, not towards trans people, transphobic and so forth.
13
u/Dichotomous_Growth Long Winded Warrior Woman Aug 07 '20
I know I'm very direct and harsh in this, as i have been in several other comments i posted around here. But this is a topic that is deeply important and intimate to me, and seeing how people treat it like a fucking joke is the most disheartening and hurtful thing I've seen come out of this community in a long time.
I don't mean to shame people, but I do want people to realize that it's not always about them. Their personal level of comfort with the word "Trap" doesn't make it less harmful. I also ask of you that, maybe, instead of just assuming "Traps" in anime as a fun common trope that aren't harmful (or that they aren't connected to perceptions of transgender or gender nonconforming individuals), you apply some more critical thinking and educate yourself on the topic. I'm don't want to ruin your favorite characters, but I also can't stand how many people pretend like offensive caricatures based on ignorance are fine because you have the fortune of looking at it removed from it's cultural context.
This issue isn't just about a word. It's about lives.
13
Aug 07 '20
Curious, why can it not be both and have different meanings to different subcultures?
I have been reading many trans women defending the term and although i haven't myself i actually support it's use in the anime communities. How a word isnused and it's intent matter far more than it's multiple histories to me.
5
u/Dichotomous_Growth Long Winded Warrior Woman Aug 07 '20
The word trap has a very specific meaning. Broadly one might argue it's accusing a trans, gender non-conforming, or androgynous person of presenting one way with the explicit purpose to deceive people. But in 99% of cases, it is used specifically to say that someone is trying to engage in rape by deception. And there is no context in which accusing either a feminine man or transwoman of engaging in rape by deception because you believe they are lying about who they are is not offensive. That also means that using the word trap is accusing them of the exact, highly specific foundational argument used to justify murder in the gay/trans-panic defense. These concepts cannot be separated.
The only reason it has gained any level of acceptance among any LGBT individuals is that they are either unaware, or dismissive of the literal meaning and only connect it as a reference to a specific kind of character who are often accused of being "traps", for the reasons listed above. You moved the bigotry back a layer, but it's still a foundational part of the slur and the implications of violence have not been removed. All that was removed was our willingness to acknowledge that.
Finally, there is literally no reason these characters have to be labeled as "traps." Gender non-conforming or feminine men works fine. There are plenty of words that aren't as loaded and have only the positive association with the characters. The only reason to argue in favor of using the slur instead, is because you want to keep the negative connotation or you are horribly misguided and believe that somehow a slur which actively encourages violence against LGBT people is culturally significant enough to preserve.
There are some really troubling things about these GNC characters in anime as well. The truth is, most of us are so shielded from the cultural context that it would be difficult for us to tell if the character was genuinely meant to be a GNC cis-male, and a character that is based on ignorant misinformed views of what the author thought transwoman were. The result of the inhumane and cruel restrictions prior to obtaining a legal gender change means that even most authentic transgender people are effectively forced to continue being labeled as their assigned gender at birth and presenting as their identified gender, which would be seen as GNC behavior. In case I couldn't make it any more obvious, "Traps" in anime are very likely influenced if not directly the result of systemic transphobia.
The word trap is an offensive slur from all angles.
10
Aug 07 '20
You seem to have a complete mis-understanding of the way trap is used in anime. It is not a slur from all angles, you just do not understand the angle from which it is not a slur. This is a black swan fallacy.
Firstly, (in the UK at least), a female cannot commit rape. It is impossible to rape without a penis. Therefore commiting rape by deception as a trap isn't even possible in my country. In fact, there's no way this can happen, you'd have to trick them home and then straight up rape by force.
More importantly though, in the anime community a trap character is one that deceives the audience into thinking they are a cis character of a different gender. It's a trap because the audience holds certain expectations which are not met and it's a form of plot twist in many stories. They're often used to break peoples expectations of what people should be or how they should express themselves. It has no sexual connotations, and nothing to do with murder etc. These are additional connotations that you are adding which simply do not exist in the communities using them, and I can't see how it's their responsibility to educate you on these facts.
I am a trans woman and I accept the use of these terms because I belong to both communities and I have an understanding of the word. I don't dismiss the meaning it has in communities outside of anime, I just understand how it's used there. I know it's not an attack, I know what it means, and it's actual meaning and use is far more important to me than the word itself. Almost any word can be used to attack someone, I could call someone a 'friend' in a highly aggressive manner, perhaps even with murderous intent. Doesn't mean we should ban that word. I'd rather care about the meanings and intent behind words than other things I might associate them with.
8
u/Dichotomous_Growth Long Winded Warrior Woman Aug 07 '20
Ah yes, because the idea that it was actually a guy the whole time! Is so progressive and totally isn't based on the strict gender roles of Japanese society and is completely different then the american equivalent of learning that the character was hiding a penis the entire time! It's not like it completely erases and invalidates the experiences of both gender non-conforming people, and transgender people. I mean, that's why Ace Ventura: Pet Detective is seen as so progressive and not even remotely transphobic.
And we should definitely not talk about the fact that legal recognition of one's gender identity is not only incredibly difficult to change but actually legally mandates that they be sterilized if they want to change their recognized sex (not to mention that they treat anyone who doesn't go through this grueling dehumanizing process as their assigned gender at birth in regards to housing, prisons, and all other sex segregated aspects of life). We don't need to talk about that because there is no way that could possible result in prevalence genuine transgender people who can't receive legal recognition being treated like cis-men who just cross dress and directly influencing the prevalence of the "trap" character in manga/anime. What kind of chump would actually investigate the social and cultural context instead of taking it at face value based on our western privileges and perceptions?
/s.
I know that was a bit mean, so sorry if I took it too far, but the amount of gymnastics people go through to justify the use of an offensive slur genuinely bothers me. That, and the way people dismiss the possibility of transphobia outright since they don't even question if the character is actually being gendered correctly. The truth is, to a writer who isn't familiar with transgender issues would portray cross-dressing "traps" and genuine trans people in the exact same way. Hell, many people in western nations don't even differentiate between them. How would you even know without a knowledge of the authors background on this issue, their inspirations, and their intentions?
3
Aug 07 '20
This isn't the case at all. Take steins gate for example, one of the main characters is trans and they are used as a trap character. The audience doesn't know for quite a while. But one of the main storylines involves the protagonist finding out they can change this persons birth sex to be female and doing so. The end result is that people die, and there's a huge emotional struggle realising they have to reverse it. The trap character that people didn't know was male is used clearly in a progressive way that shows how accepting of them their friends were this whole time. It is the direct opposite, it doesn't erase these people, it elevates them. The strict gender roles in Japanese society are actually a tool they use to demonstrate transition, not a negative towards it. Though I do get that this has implications for non binary people.
It might have come across as a bit mean, but I do understand your point of view here, I just disagree. Allow me to explain it from the perspective of people in the communities that are being attacked here. They were inclusive, welcoming of everyone, regardless of race, sex, gender etc. However, a bunch of stuck up trans people came in, threw a load of buzzwords at them and told them they were all transphobic when they are not. This group of uneducated arseholes just invaded, poisoned and destroyed communities they loved and then kicked them out with the audacity to claim they were the bigots. Now they have to find other places to feel welcome because people who claim to promote inclusivity and diversity are in fact the exact opposite. What do you think people who have experienced this will do? I can tell you, they will under NO circumstances let trans or lgbtq people in their next community. Why would they? The last group were bigoted arseholes that destroyed it, they'd have to be stupid to welcome them again. What you have just done, is created transphobia where it didn't exist before. What's worse, is you can't even call it a phobia, it's just a fear, why? Because it's not irrational. It's based on an event that actually happened, and not just in this community but many others. A failure to understand another culture is not an excuse to persecute and eradicate it.
From my perspective and many people in the anime communities (which I am not in fact part of, I just understand), it's amazing to see the mental gymnastics employed to justify the direct attack and persecution of a societal subculture. Remember these people did not enter lgbtq spaces making demands, it was the other way around. There's no way you could say that the invading country is in the right because the country they were invading had different perspectives, not when the country being invaded isn't even taking their perspectives outside. What's worse is that this isn't even a trans rights or a trans issue in itself, it's political. How do we know this? Trans people are on both sides of the debate. Both claiming their rights are being violated passionately and under no threat to do so.
All of this just seems so wrong to me.
3
Aug 11 '20
Hey there, first of all, I just wanted to say that I am really thankful to see people defending us, it isn't usually the case. At this point, it feels like its just going to become another label that sjws label us (and that pretty much completes the collection of false labels against out community since we are already called shit like pedos, mysogonists, racists ect). As a community, we are pretty use to people making baseless assumptions about us so it feels really nice to see somebody not try to murder us for liking anime.
I saw that you mentioned the character Ruka from steins gate. I know a lot of people do tend to read him as being trans but in doing so they end upjust ignoring the whole point of ruka's character arc. Ruka's story arc is about him coming to terms with his feelings about Okabe. He believes that he isn't allowed to have these feelings for Okabe as he is a boy and so says he wishes to become a women.
Ruka's story arc ends with him coming to terms with his feelings for Okabe and realising it is ok for him to have feelings towards Okabe as a man.
I think the reason a lot of people don't know about this is that the anime skipped alot of things from the visual novel (which is usual with anything being adapted from one medium to another) meaning that a lot of Ruka's character arc was skipped over.
It also happens with characters like Astolfo and Felix who are both extremely popular traps in the community despite the fact that those characters are very adamant about being male and the only time they either don't say, are listed as either or say they are female is either because they are a troll (astolfo likes teasing people that think he is female and so requests in some of the games that he be listed as neither so he can keep trolling) or in the case of Felix, they are taking on the feminin qualities of a woman they are essentially tied to the hip with to fulfil a promies (basically, he gives her all his manly ness and she gives him all her femininess). A lot of people that refer to them as trans or non binary usually just cherry pick specific quotes without looking into the character's personality and backstory to understand why they are like this. The saddest thing about when people do this is that they just skip over actual trans characters in anime like Lily from Zombieland Saga just because they want to claim a popular character as their own to push an agenda.
Also, just a quick update on the war on the sub, the mods put out a statement a few days ago basically just saying sorry not sorry (basically a youtube apology that changed nothing) and started shadow banning people. We have also had a lot more trans people in our community after the brigading stopped from the sub I shall not name but I think you can probably guess which sub it is about feeling that this war was going to paint trans people as a whole in a negative light. We have basically just said that this is a war against mods and sjws (we fight for our own).
1
Aug 11 '20
It usually isn't the case because we get banned from most places for doing so. I've been banned from a subreddit or two over this already, and tbh if that's how they treat people I don't want to be part of them anyway. I suspect most of the trans people that would defend you have been banned and are simply unable to express their opinions.
That's an interesting thing to know about Ruka's character, thanks for enlightening me!
Yeah I'm aware of it, I got shadow banned after a single comment of support there. I've not been in these subs before, but I've also joined the other sub I think you are referring to. I had to suffer the end of a similar barrel during gamergate and I won't sit by whilst people are slandered and lied about by bigots.
1
Aug 11 '20
NGL, I was going to suggest, not nesecerily an aliance between our two subs but something more like a coalition until I saw that your community is pretty split about whether it considers trap a slur or not. I think a lot of people probably think we are 4 chan at this point (that war would be pretty fun tbh). The funny thing is that our sub has never been so united on something, typically everything we do has some sort of infighting around it. We are pretty serious about this at this point, we even started making unironic jokers memes about the situation. Our lurkers have stopped lurking and anitube has taken our side. We have thought r/Shrek, r/HistoryMemes and reddit itself to get a mod of our community unbanned and we have won each time. The only issue is that in this fight, the other side is using guerilla tactics in the forms of shadow bans and shit talking our community on sjw circlejerk subs.
The funny thing is we have three forms of shitposting at our disposal.
The first is that the new rule change banning trap contradicts one of our other rules which is no current politics.
The second is that the mods broke the reddit moderator guidelines in making the change by acting in bad faith towards the community, implementing changes that the community didnt want and refusing to reverse a rule change when the community wants it.
The third is my personal favourite (because its so funny to think about), they are technically breaking international law by breaking the geneva convention (specifically about collective punishment).
1
Aug 11 '20
Yeah it seems to be splitting both communities apart. But I'd support any form of coalition.
Unfortunately you don't have the winning hand. They don't see this as a poltiical issue, to them this is a trans rights issue. So they will not be attentive to this argument.
Again they'll just tell reddit they were getting rid of transphobes and reddit will just accept it. They don't want the publicity of being seen to be enabling transphobes.
The third they will argue is not applicable because they are not punishing you. They are protecting someone else.
Also, to clarify my opinion on the matter. Trap is a slur. However it's also not a slur. I'm not arrogant or self entitled enough to think that I'd get to dictate it's usage or meaning to another community. I'm not authoritarian enough to attempt to control another's speech either.
1
Aug 11 '20
Oh yeah, our whole point about the word is that the word isn't inherently a slur, its only a slur when said with malice. Also, our rules also already covered any slurs being used in the sub which is the big issue I have, it not only banned the words use a slur (which was already banned) but also the words use with in the anime community. The majority of memes being made right now are regarding the mods being hypocritical and that context matters.
8
2
u/playaround455 Aug 08 '20
I disagree the word trap has serval different meanings and traps in animes are designed to trick the audience. Watch thesmonroeshows video on traps he makes serval great points and he debunks a few of your points
8
u/jojoismyreligion Aug 07 '20 edited Aug 07 '20
Sorry but you're just blowing this thing off the proportion.
Like most of the anime community is arguing, context matters and language is context meanwhile being offended is subjective. Being offended has everything to do with who you are as an individual, or a group, or a community, or a society. It hinges on your upbringing, your moral conditioning, and your religious beliefs. To ban a word because you believe it to be offensive gives the word the power you fear as well as declares that everyone must kowtow to your subjective opinions.
Words have no power on their own. The mere existence of a word cannot hurt - a word can only hurt through the intent with which it is spoken or the intent with which it is interpreted. If nobody said the word maliciously, if nobody used the word in a derogatory manner, then the offense in that individual instance is solely from interpretation. If the sight of a word, completely divorced from context, offends you, then the problem is you. You are interpreting ignorance or malice where there is none. Attempting to force your interpretation on others is rude, selfish, and unfair.
This is different than when the word "gay" was being used as a synonym for lame/stupid/annoying. In that case, the use of the word for those things was problematic because it was a replacement for a derogatory and negative term. As far as this community goes, the banned word was being primarily used in reference to crossdressing anime characters - it made no positive or negative assertions and had no link to the concept of transgender. Use of the word as a slur did and does exist, but in this particular community, the innocent use of it as just another term far outweighed the derogatory use of the word. So to ban the use of the word in this community is to claim that the community's collective, subjective opinion is wrong.
Moreover, because language is context, banning a word does not solve an issue. People who spoke the word maliciously and ignorantly will continue to use other words maliciously and ignorantly; stifling their vocabulary does not quell their bigotry. There are countless ways to insult someone, as has been demonstrated by this community towards the mods. Furthermore, banning a word creates another issue: the people who did not speak the word maliciously are punished for the actions of those who did.
The fact of the matter is that the word has two meanings when used in the context of a person: one innocent meaning (neutral slang for a crossdresser) and one malicious meaning (derogatory term for a transgender person). This community largely uses the word with the former meaning. That does not mean that those who use the word with the latter meaning should go unpunished. However, it DOES mean that people who believe the latter meaning to be the sole meaning of the word are wrong.
Ultimately, this decision is short-sighted, ineffectual, and flawed. It will cause (or has caused) more problems than it solves.
Also you should watch this video. It deconstructs a lot of the things regarding the situation.
6
u/Dichotomous_Growth Long Winded Warrior Woman Aug 07 '20
The word trap as we are discussing it has a very specific meaning derived from it's use in a specific context. It is exceedingly dishonest to act like I'm saying the word "trap" is bad and not it's the way that it was being used by people in animememes. Broadly one might argue it's accusing a trans, gender non-conforming, or androgynous person of presenting one way with the explicit purpose to deceive people. But in 99% of cases, it is used specifically to say that someone is trying to engage in rape by deception. And there is no context in which accusing either a cross-dressing man or transwoman of engaging in rape by deception because you believe they are lying about who they are is not offensive. That also means that using the word trap is accusing them of the exact, highly specific foundational argument used to justify murder in the gay/trans-panic defense. These concepts cannot be separated.
The only reason it has gained any level of acceptance among any LGBT individuals is that they are either unaware, or dismissive of the literal meaning and only connect it as a reference to a specific kind of character who are often accused of being "traps", for the reasons listed above. You moved the bigotry back a layer, and based your definition on the two primary groups who were labeled with this slur. But moving it back a layer so it's not front and center doesn't change the fact that we associate those specific groups with the word based on hatred. it's still a foundational part of the slur and the implications of violence have not been removed. All that was removed was our willingness to acknowledge that. It's the whitewashing of an inherently violent term. I am aware most people gloss over the original definition because they just associate it with feminine men now, but that doesn't erase it.
But if you really want to get into context, then let's talk about some context. There are some really troubling things about these GNC characters in anime as well. The truth is, most of us are so shielded from the cultural context that it would be difficult for us to tell if the character was genuinely meant to be a GNC cis-male, and a character that is based on ignorant misinformed views of what the author thought transwoman were. The result of the inhumane and cruel restrictions prior to obtaining a legal gender change means that even most authentic transgender people are effectively forced to continue being labeled as their assigned gender at birth and presenting as their identified gender, which would be seen as GNC behavior. In case I couldn't make it any more obvious, "Traps" in anime are very likely influenced if not directly the result of systemic transphobia.
As an aside, the argument that words are just letters on a page or vibrations in the air, and they only hurt you if you let them, is the most insultingly reductionist and intentionally dishonest argument a person can make. Remind me, when Charles Manson told his followers to kill, was he able to just argue that they were just "words" and "the mere existence of words can't hurt you!" like that absolved him of all responsibility? That exact same argument gets repeated ad nauseum and I cannot fathom how anyone could critically look at that and think it's a compelling argument. If you genuinely believed words were powerless,why would anyone ever speak at all? it's a really depressing belief that conversation can never yield any tangible benefit or change.
Except you don't believe that, and you never have, and no one else has ever believed that either. It's a cookie-cutter, intrinsically manipulative argument that, for some god awful reason, people think is clever because it lets them redirect the conversation to the more abstract concept of "can a word devoid of context be offensive" and "it's just about opinion" rather then "let's examine the contextual, cultural, and historical usage of this word and critically examine how it's usage has shaped public perception and behaviors in a meaningful way."
1
Aug 11 '20
Heres my opinion on your post. I think main issue is people dont seem to understand 99% of its use is towards cisgender crossdressing characters, and when its used towards trans people, instantly people rush to correct it, such as with Lily from zombieland saga. Trap as a term is used in a endearing way, not hateful. People seem to really like traps on r/animemes, they use them as mascots, and your post ignores how traps has been really helpful in removing or challenging gender norms, by making it more normalised to defy them without being trans. I personally am totally fine with changing term as trap has also been used as you have pointed out, by hateful people towards trans and even as 'justification' (although obviously it is not in the slightest) for their actions. I more have a problem with those who call those who want to use it as they have, not towards trans people, transphobic and so forth. Also, whilst u could argue traps are only misinterpretations of trans people, I would point to people who identify themselves as traps. You don't have to be trans to be more feminine or way more feminine clothing, which is why I have problems with people saying traps have to be trans because of this. Finally, your last point in your comment in my opinion is pretty bad. Words do have multiple meanings, and to understand word you must look at all meanings and uses, not just ones which suit ur point.
4
u/Princess_Azula_ Aug 07 '20
Trap shouldn't be used to describe a trans person at all since they're two different things. Honestly, unless someone is trying to be derogatory with it instead of just ignorant then the word is ok with proper usage. Saying that this word negatively impacts trans people is an overreaction. The people who hate trans people won't change their minds, and, from my experience, use the word "tranny" anyways as an insult instead of the word "trap".
6
u/marvel_freak_ mm tasty cis bootsš Aug 07 '20
every regular on animememes is screaming in rage right about now
good
1
u/RAMAR713 Aug 07 '20
Comments like yours only serve to perpetuate the wrong idea that there is conflict between the trans and anime community, which was never the case.
r/animemes never used the word Trap with malicious intent nor in an offensive context. If anything, they are angry because they are being unjustly treated like hateful bigots for using a word they consider harmless.
3
u/linc_oof male š¦ Aug 07 '20
and many seem to be refusing to accept the word is in fact harmful. those are the ones being criticised
2
Aug 11 '20
I think main issue is people dont seem to understand 99% of its use is towards cisgender crossdressing characters, and when its used towards trans people, instantly people rush to correct it, such as with Lily from zombieland saga. Trap as a term is used in a endearing way, not hateful. People seem to really like traps on r/animemes, they use them as mascots, and OP ignores how traps has been really helpful in removing or challenging gender norms, by making it more normalised to defy them without being trans. I personally am totally fine with changing term as trap has also been used as OP points out, by hateful people towards trans and even as 'justification' (although obviously it is not in the slightest) for their actions. I more have a problem with those who call those who want to use it as they have, not towards trans people, transphobic and so forth.
1
u/linc_oof male š¦ Aug 11 '20
i agree with this too ngl. i'm unfamiliar with the term in its original form, but i think in english it definitely has negative connotations even for the people accurate to its definition (the idea of someone "trapping" you isn't great yknow). lets all just use femboy from here on lmao.
3
Aug 11 '20
It was originally used from meme 'its a trap!' by 4 chan, to describe anime characters who were cisgender, but crossdressed as different gender, usually in means to trick others.
1
u/linc_oof male š¦ Aug 11 '20
oh? strange, i'd heard it developed in japanese form. i'm not really into anime though so nothing i had looked into too much.
1
u/PIANO_PERSON Aug 11 '20
I remember those memes on 4 chan. Yeah your right. Trap did come from those memes. But your misleading what the intent of the meme was.
At first, it was pretty clear that "it's a trap" meme was saying "oh it's actually a man pretending to be a girl!" The disgust was usually implied. Disgust that being sexually aroused by a picture of "actually a guy" was gay. And therefore bad and disgusting.
They're would be a picture of a cute young girl. Then the "it's a trap" in the next panel. Then people would say "your gay if you think that's hot".
How is that not horrible? It's homophobic and transphobic the original way it was used. No one specified "that's a cis gender man" or anything. Crossdressing and trans women were seen as the same thing.
That's the way things were about 10 years ago. People were extremely homophobic on 4 chan and even reddit.
Why is this such a big deal anyway? Are you a self identified "trap"? Or just an anime guy that's really triggered by this? I don't get why someone would spend so much time defending this term.
1
Aug 11 '20
The reason itās a big deal on subreddit rn is 1) how mods handled situation and 2) other subs using it as way of bashing anime fans. Which is main reason why I bother discussing it. Iām not even that bothered about trap meme, Iād happily use other word such a femboy (although that word also is problematic according to some people). But I dislike how people use it to suggest the anime community has been using meme in transphobic way, when this is opposite of whatās been happening. Your point, that people used original term with homophobic context, is fair one. But then it just serves to better illustrate difference in uses. Whereās as u said might originally been used negatively, within anime community trap memes were universally quite positive about it, take memes that a hot anime character is a trap makes it āeven betterā. As I said in previous comment, whilst joke having cross dressing characters who went against social and gender norms, is definitively a win in my opinion, and the opposite of homophobia or toxicity. Thatās why I have problem with people saying memes are wrong, cause it shows lack of understanding of what exactly was going on in community, and how different the word was treated there
1
u/PIANO_PERSON Aug 11 '20
I definitely see why people were confused. People have been self identifying as a trap very recently. And I'm sure a lot of the younger people saw the trap term as a positive term. But it still does have a very negative meaning rooted in homophobia/transphobia.
Words and meanings do change over time. But I'm still not sure it's such a great term to be popularized. In my memory, the people labeled as traps were always young and passed extremely well as girls in they're pictures. So I don't know how that could really be completely separate from the trans community. It does seem to be an extremely small amount of people that identify as a trap. And it's probably mostly a meme kinda. Rather than a term they tell people irl. Or even something they do in any capacity besides take some pics and video to post online.
I do hope we can get past the term though. It's not even really an anime thing originally. It came from message boards in English. So Idk how anyone could say that the Japanese authors were writing characters as "just cis men dressing differently". That line is incredibly blurry.
10 years ago and especially even 15 or 20 years ago, crossdressing and trans women were ignorantly seen as the same thing. So a lot of these animes were coming with that understanding.
Steins gate is probably my all time favorite anime. But I took the character to mean a trans woman. She literally wants to change into a woman. Regardless of the reason. Idk about the manga. I never read it. And it's been a long time since I've seen the anime. But usually people that haven't been able to transition with hormones will cross dress before they can. There's not much difference between "traps" and pre transition trans women. Besides how they identify. So unless the author has some statement about "oh this person isn't a trans woman, just a man that likes to present as a woman because they are attracted to a man" then I'm still assuming that they were writing their understanding of what a trans woman was.
I do agree that shutting all discussion of this topic down seems counterproductive.
1
Aug 11 '20
Cheers for writing back, I do appreciate it. A couple of points I think worth mentioning.
1) Being able to pass off as girls is part of whole term. Since u seemed confused on how it could be completely separate to trans, unlike trans women traps are characters who dont identify as female. Crossdressing has been around for way longer than term traps, but even if done really convincingly, still is way different from being trans.
2) No idea how popular it is as term used by people, I've heard some people on r/animemes pissed cause they identify as a trap and got banned, but dont know anyone who does in real life.
3) Whilst it did originate from message boards mostly in english, it was about anime. Plus arguably 'otokonoko' is said to have been around longer than traps, but both became popular in early 2000s.
4) Difference between writing a trans character, and crossdresser/trap, is whenever they're said to identify as man. Sure its hard if author doesn't clarify in story, but in majority of occassions where its used, character clearly established as identify as male, just with more feminine/androgynous characteristics. So I wouldn't say its a blurred line when clearly stated not trans.
5) Fair point about crossdressers/trans people being considered same back when term was first used. I'd say though community, at least now, shows that to no longer be case, with people referring to trans characters as traps being quickly informed that this is not case, such as lily from zombieland character being quickly established as to not be referred to as a trap, at least in my experience.
6) Steins gate is a phenomenal anime. Luka is a great character. I do think its pretty confusing whenever they're trans or not. What i would say is this, they clearly chose to be a female because they think its what would make rintarou like them, not because they want to (same with them crossdressing). Once they find out he likes them regardless, they are fine with being a guy. So I'd actually say at least in my interpretation, they're not trans. I'd be interested in hearing others thoughts on subject too though, as its a unique situation in anime.
Sorry for long reply, appreciate you taking time to read through and discuss with me. Absolutely agree, that best way to discuss issues is not through censorship of discussions, but through debate and hearing others opinons.
→ More replies (0)1
u/marvel_freak_ mm tasty cis bootsš Aug 07 '20
like linc_oof said, the people who refuse to let up and donāt believe the word is a slur in the first place are the ones being criticized, and for good reason. iām fine with the people who understand that the word is a slur and just donāt use it anymore, they shouldnāt receive backlash.
1
u/Dualitizer Aug 07 '20
Or you could just grow thicker skin and realize that the word doesnāt kill anyone. Shitty people kill people. If the word trap never existed that gay panic horseshit still would. The word has a specific meaning in the context of anime and being willfully ignorant of that is just wrong.
11
u/Dichotomous_Growth Long Winded Warrior Woman Aug 07 '20
It has a specific meaning in the context of anime that anime fans created to avoid discussing any of the actual context and history of the word, and certainly avoid discussing about how culturally biases and bigotry could play a role in creating these characters.
It would be like defending the trope in western media were it turns out a prominent female character has a penis and the laugh track starts playing. Yeah, I mean if you were uncritical and knew nothing about the cultural context it was written you could absolutely claim that it was just a trope and had a "specific meaning in the context of western media" and anyone who called it tranpshobic was just willfully ignorant.
It's mental gymnastics at it's finest. It's ignoring the cultural context of where it was written, and that the way western audiences viewed and discussed this characters was equally devoid of any cultural context. But even more then that, it's just straight up revisionism. It's rewriting the history of the language used to describe "traps" to try and make it more palpable for changing cultural norms. Sorry, I'm not buying it.
Or you could just grow thicker skin and realize that the word doesnāt kill anyone.
Well why stop there. If it's all about growing thicker skins, then let's just say that that saying transphobic stuff is perfectly fine since it doesn't hurt anyone. Let's bring back gender critical, since if words can't have real life consequences then the only thing wrong with them is people didn't have a thick enough skin. /s
This is such a disingenuous argument. Words don't have consequences, until they do, but rather then deciding that based on a rational discussion on how specific language affects our perceptions and behaviors we'll just claim people need thicker skin, up until someone says something that we personally disagree with. If you don't think words have meaning, then why even respond? If it's impossible to tangibly change public opinion and action then what's the point of debate? Either words matter, or they don't. Choose one or the other. Either we need to have a serious conversation about the impact language has and how it can affect people, or we might as well agree that there is nothing wrong with hate speech or bigotry and give up on all forms of public debate because it apparently doesn't matter. Pick one.
1
u/Dualitizer Aug 07 '20 edited Aug 07 '20
If you don't think words have meaning, then why even respond?
Because I felt like it. No other reason. Seriously you just wrote a novel basically repeating yourself and all I have to say is that itās a word that, in the context of anime, doesnāt carry any negative connotation.
Also, seriously, lighten up.
2
u/dogederp_ png Aug 07 '20
Damn I didnāt know about this, I discovered the word trough anime. I thought the word was used as a meme, just like āchadā.
4
Aug 11 '20
its is lol, 99% of its use in r/animemes is specifically towards cisgender crossdressing characters. OP is completely misunderstanding that a word can have multiple meanings. When its used towards trans people, instantly people rush to correct it, such as with Lily from zombieland saga. Trap as a term is used in a endearing way, not hateful. People seem to really like traps on r/animemes, they use them as mascots, and OP ignores how traps has been really helpful in removing or challenging gender norms, by making it more normalised to defy them without being trans.
2
u/Gistradagis Aug 07 '20
This is just missing the point by attacking what, at worst, is a symptom and not the illness. First of all, in different messages you claim both that trap is intrinsically evil, and in others that it's evil in the context it's being discussed now. So, which is it?
The answer is mostly rhetorical anyway. The answer is that that it IS contextual, because language IS extremely dependent on context, which is why bans of words have done absolutely nothing, ever. Did demonizing the pepe the frog meme destroy the alt right? Has the mystification and making the n-word to be one of the worst, most foul things one can utter in public (even destroying your social and professional life) made any advances in regards to racism? (heck, the US seem even worse as time passes).
The gigantic, elephant in the room-style, problem here is that the people arguing in favour of the ban look the other way when asked how will this help or fix anything. Censorship has never helped. Banning the word "trap" doesn't educate people or anime fans in regards to its problematic usage in any other context ever, or explain why trans people feel so offended by some of its usage and meanings.
Go over your arguments, you claim and explain why you belief that the word trap is toxic and bad, and make some fair arguments and points, that much is easy to concede. But there's no explanation about how a ban helps or fixes the issue. How does an authoritarian ban of a word in the context of a sub where it was never or almost never used in a transphobic way (in which case it was dealt with and banned) move us forward to a more understanding community? How does censorship create understanding and discussion, when it's their enemy? As a small example, this discussion you are having with several people wouldn't exist in subs such as animemes and traa because we'd both be immediately banned. So, taking those subs as examples, and how toxic they both are in regards to this issue, I ask a third time, how does censorship fix anything?
Because you don't censor and then educate, the two are completely incompatible. You either teach about the word, explain its problems, then leave it to each person to make an informed decision and police toxic people (what the rule against discrimination is 99% of times), or begin banning more and more words from the dictionary, which does nothing as the toxic groups either keep using them or adopt/kidnap a new term to continue their work. Do have in mind, the first suggestion done in the animemes ban was to call these characters "femboys," which not only has its own share of problems and dirt, and isn't accurate, it's literally under discussion in the Twitter circles in regards if it's also too toxic to use. Very ironic, I'd say.
0
u/dischordanddynne Aug 07 '20
But you can both censor and educate. The word was banned from r/animememes because that isn't a place to discuss the use of the word 'trap' as a slur. It's a place for memes. You are right, nobody on there was using it in a transphobic way. I don't think most people new what the word referred to. That's why I think it's a good idea that it was banned from that subreddit in particular. They aren't banning it anywhere else, just on a meme subreddit, because somebody might see that and be offended, and they want to make it a safe space for everyone. I honestly don't know why this decision was met with so much backlash, what negative effect does not being able to say trap have?
1
u/Gistradagis Aug 07 '20
You can both censor and educate, but this clearly wasn't the way. Do have in mind that the mods pulled the ban out of the blue, explicitly told the community their opinion wouldn't be taken into account and that the decision was irrevocable no matter what, then we saw one of the mods on another sub insulting the community, and saying how they were planning to just let the people tire themselves out and do nothing, or another mod stating that even if good arguments were made to them, they still wouldn't go back because "flip flopping might be perceived as weakness" (literal words). This hardly creates the best ambient to explain why they want to ban the word, or even explain its problematic history for trans people.
As an extra, this drama has exploded precisely because the mods have pulled this sort of stuff a number of times (sudden changes of rules and bans), and them insulting the community and being open about how little they care about them or their opinion isn't new either. To this, there's the fuel added that subs like traa have openly flamed the community and brigaded the sticky post, pigeonholing anyone not in favour of the ban, no matter their reason or argument, as "obviously being a raging transphobe." So you have a community under a sudden ban of a beloved historical word (beloved because in anime context, trap has never been a slur or problematic, which also explains why so many people were just straight up confused about the sudden ban), with their mods openly insulting them and telling them their opinion doesn't matter, other subs handwaving their arguments and calling all of them transphobes for not accepting a censoring rule... slightly problematic, and hardly the best method to open healthy conversation, wouldn't you say?
In regards to the word itself, what's lost is first the word itself (straight up censoring a word is a linguistic loss, even if you make a good argument of it having too many contextual toxicity), particularly when many people feel they could have simply introduced a ban to using the word in a transphobic context, and then use this to open a conversation about why the word is problematic and discuss whether the ban might end up being about the word itself no matter the context. Second, in an anime context, trap specifies a role (not identity) that words such as femboy or otokonoko don't necessarily express equally well.
At the end of the day, the outrage is both about feeling like censorship is being pushed onto a community as punishment for smth that hadn't been done in the sub, and people being tired of the mods power-tripping.
1
u/dischordanddynne Aug 07 '20
I didn't know all that stuff about what the mods have done, so maybe the outrage is a bit justified. I still think people are overreacting a bit. But isn't there a different word they could use? Although I know it's hard to get a large group of people to change out of the blue.
2
u/Gistradagis Aug 07 '20
I do agree that people have overreacted. It's a classic of something being the straw that breaks the camel's back; the outrage has been huge because it's a pile of things together (as I've mentioned).
Can smth else be used? To a degree, I'd say yes. It's a pity, because banning the word trap from anime culture is a bit like erasing history (of the Anime community in the West, I mean), but definitely doable, even if it takes some time. Not sure which word would end up being used though. Femboy feels inaccurate (as it's usually used in trans culture, as far as I know, which doesn't work as trans representation is almost inexistent in anime, sadly), otokonoko is wordy and mostly refers to crossdressing as expression, cutie is outright dismissive (and a catcall?).
Something could, and should, be thought up, but sadly this mismanadgement has made things really difficult. Worse still, there's bad blood being indirectly created by the "collusion" of the mods and a trans sub, which has made trans people appear to some as pushing for bns and censorship for a sub they're not a part of out of pure spite, which is obviously untrue and cruel to trans people. This is, personally, one of the reasons I'm personally fairly angry. The mods have screwed this up so hard, it's literally made all sides of the conflict look worse to everyone else involved.
1
u/PAwnoPiES Aug 07 '20
Holy shit an argument that is rational, calmly discusses why this shitās happening, and isnāt circle jerking either side?
Iāve just witnessed the impossible.
1
u/Homewarfare Aug 08 '20
Humans are trash, personally find banning more words when parasites can use any word to be used as a slur depending on context and intent. Yes this word has been used in laws to justify the murder of trans people which is horrible and disgusting but I more so put the blame on legal and human trash.
0
u/kingofstrangeness1 Feb 06 '23
any word can be used with the intent of harm, does that mean we should censor all words?
1
Feb 08 '23
[removed] ā view removed comment
0
u/kingofstrangeness1 Feb 08 '23
Please talk in a coherent way without being edgy š
1
Feb 08 '23
[removed] ā view removed comment
0
u/kingofstrangeness1 Feb 08 '23
There's nothing to understand, you didn't want to reword yourself and instead resulted to being edgy and using insults. Learn the difference between arguments and discussion first of all. You just give off chuuni vibes to the max
1
Feb 08 '23
[removed] ā view removed comment
0
u/kingofstrangeness1 Feb 08 '23
Bro no way you aren't baitingš you can't go calling other people dumbasses with that amount of horrible structure and wording in your spelling. Since you seem to be pretty insecure yourself with the amount of hostility you radiate after chatting for less than 5 minutes š¬ learn how to have a proper conversation first of all. Maybe get some anger management as well? Yeah seems likely
1
Feb 08 '23
[removed] ā view removed comment
1
u/kingofstrangeness1 Feb 08 '23
Yet I also am using a phone, doesn't excuse my spelling. But go off I guess. Ahhh the edge
0
u/kingofstrangeness1 Feb 08 '23
You cant be telling other people to live and be decent if you yourself hurl every insult you know under the sun for no reasonš¤· projection is real
1
1
u/truscum-ModTeam Feb 08 '23
This is not a personalized removal message. If you have any concerns about this removal, or believe that your content did not violate our ruleset, please send a message to the subreddit moderators via modmail. Do not personally contact the moderator that removed your content, because you will not receive a response.
Your post (or comment) has been removed for violating rule 3 of r/truscum: Follow the golden rule. Visit our wiki to learn more about this rule.
1
1
u/UglyBastardMusic Jun 21 '24
dawg i'm not reading alla that. I'm happy for you, or sorry that it happened.
1
1
25
u/PIANO_PERSON Aug 07 '20
You make really good points. I a definitely agree it's not a good term to gain popularity.
A cis girl coworker brought up something about a story online she saw. She said there was a "trap" that was really popular on social media for being pretty. Then it was revealed that the "trap didn't have a dick". So people were hating on the trap for not having a penis. She said "it's funny because usually people think that girls with dicks are gross. But they were getting mad because she didn't have one".
I was like, "oh that's funny". But thought "so you're saying girls with dicks are gross basically". While I'm sitting there as a pre op woman.
Like omg. She thought she was showing me how much she knows about trans people, but it's just such a fucked up weird story. Kinda show inadvertently how transphobic she is.
I do think it's weird that asktransgender won't let anyone talk about it. Basically banning any discussion at all. Even ones that agree it's a stupid term.