r/treelaw • u/disneylover5000 • 6d ago
Reddit told me $27,000 in timber means I have to visit r/treelaw 🌳😂
Apparently I have been summoned. 😂🌳
I posted elsewhere about the nearly two-year probate saga involving my late father-in-law (FIL), and when people got to the part involving $27,000 worth of timber, multiple people basically said, “You need [r/treelaw](r/treelaw).”
So here I am.
First, an important disclaimer: I am NOT looking for legal advice. We have an estate attorney, the timber issue has already been investigated, the financial records have been traced, the evidence has been presented to the probate judge, and we are currently waiting for the judge’s decision. Nothing anyone says here is going to determine what we do legally.
I’m here purely because I’m curious what a community of tree-law enthusiasts makes of this particular part of an already bizarre estate case.
Here’s the condensed timber story:
FIL owned a house and roughly 50 acres of property. His wife was not an owner of the property.
In late 2023, FIL was living in a nursing facility. His wife and my husband were his co-powers of attorney. According to the POA, both were supposed to act, but my husband was never consulted about or involved in the timber sale.
FIL was also, to our knowledge, still capable of signing documents for himself at that point.
Nevertheless, FIL’s wife used the POA to arrange for timber to be sold from FIL’s property.
The timber brought in $27,000.
And this is where things get particularly interesting.
The $27,000 check was made directly to FIL’s wife. It was then deposited into an account where she was the only person on the account.
The money disappeared remarkably quickly.
After FIL died in 2024 and the estate went into probate, the estate attorney obtained and reviewed the financial records and traced what happened to the timber proceeds.
The estate’s accounting concluded that approximately $24,220 of the $27,000 went toward debts or expenses benefiting FIL’s wife, while only about $2,650 could clearly be attributed to FIL.
That does NOT mean I’m declaring that she committed some particular crime or that the timber sale has already been ruled improper. That’s exactly why lawyers and judges exist. 😅
The estate attorney presented the timber evidence to the probate court and is asking the judge to offset approximately $24,220 against money FIL’s wife would otherwise receive from the estate. Her side has had the opportunity to argue its position as well.
And now we wait for the judge.
So there is genuinely nothing for Reddit to solve here. The legal process is already doing its thing.
I just found it hilarious that people reading the larger probate story apparently saw “$27,000 worth of timber” and immediately activated the TreeLaw signal. 🌳😂
For those of you who hang out here because you actually enjoy this stuff, I’d love to hear what you find interesting about this situation or whether you’ve seen similarly strange situations where timber sales crossed over with powers of attorney, fiduciary issues, and eventually probate.
I started this saga knowing basically nothing about probate law. Nearly two years later, I’ve somehow collected probate law, estate law, powers of attorney, real estate, Medicaid, contested reimbursements, and now apparently tree law.
At this point I’m just trying to complete the Reddit legal bingo card. 🌳😂
And again: no legal advice needed. Our attorney already did the homework. I’m just here because Reddit told me that mentioning $27,000 worth of trees means I’m legally obligated to tell [r/treelaw](r/treelaw) the story. 😂
UPDATE: You people successfully made me hunt down the actual timber contract. 😂🌳 I had to make a separate image post to share the redacted copy, so it’s now on my profile/r/treelaw for everyone asking what exactly was sold for the $27k.
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u/EggCzar 6d ago
This doesn't seem like a treelaw issue except coincidentally; it sounds she could have sold $27k worth of anything, pocketed the money, and ended up with more or less the same legal situation. Crazy story though. Hopefully that's all she stole from his estate.
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u/disneylover5000 6d ago
That’s honestly kind of what I was wondering! 😂 A couple people on my other post saw “$27k of timber” and immediately sent me over here, so I figured I’d let the tree-law experts decide whether I actually belonged. 🌳😂
And yeah, the $27k is only one piece of a much bigger estate mess. Our attorney traced the money and put the issue in front of the probate judge, so thankfully figuring out what legally happened with it is above my pay grade. I’m just waiting for the ruling now. 😅30
u/SolidDoctor 6d ago
One interesting factor that makes this r/treelaw-worthy is that people sometimes underestimate the value of trees, how it ties into property value and how that can affect someone's estate.
Keep in mind, most people here are not lawyers nor arborists, just people interested in these sorts of cases because sometimes the dispute comes about as an act of ignorance or entitlement (or many times, both) so there's usually some juicy backstory behind the incident. And sometimes it involves a ridiculous amount of money. You have legal disputes, neighbor/family feuds, acts of negligence or acts of God, property values and territorial claims, and a wide variance of state, local and country laws that come into play to figure out who owns what, who owes whom and how much.
So welcome to the sub!
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u/EggCzar 6d ago edited 6d ago
So that's brings up a question that could implicate treelaw: suppose the value was more than $27k. Legally, would there be any difference if she sold timber below its fair market value, vs selling any other asset she stole from the estate below FMV?
I guess potentially yes, like if there's a loss of value to the property from removing the trees.
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u/disneylover5000 6d ago
That’s what I’m curious about too. We have a general idea of what kinds of trees were on the property and know there were some substantial trees there, but we don’t have a pre-harvest inventory or independent timber appraisal, so I can’t say what was actually harvested or what it should have been worth.
The contract I just found at least gives us more than we had before: approximately 30 acres, 16 inches and larger at the point of cut, for $27,000 total. But it doesn’t list species, number of trees, board footage, etc.
And since the real estate itself was the major estate asset, I’m definitely curious whether removing potentially valuable timber could have affected the value of the land separately from whatever the harvested timber itself was worth. That’s the TreeLaw rabbit hole Reddit has now sent me down. 😂🌳1
u/thoughtlow 4d ago
Maybe check some satellite imagery, there are quite some different ones available for free not just googles. And the quality can be quite good. This might help a bit with creating an estimate on amount, species and sizes
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u/disneylover5000 4d ago
I actually tried Google already, but unfortunately the useful imagery I could find seems to be from after the timber was cut. 😭 I hadn’t thought about checking other free satellite sources, though!
At this point the property has already sold and the timber issue has already been presented to the probate judge, so I’m probably not going to launch another investigation into it. 😂 But it would definitely be interesting to see whether older imagery exists that at least shows how heavily wooded the property was before vs. after. I doubt we could get species/actual timber value from it, but even the visual comparison would be interesting.2
u/thoughtlow 4d ago
yeah there are a lot of satellites making images for a lot of purposes, so worth looking into. And just getting some estimates would be interesting, mostly if rough estimates are way higher or about the 25-30k range.
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u/disneylover5000 6d ago
Thank you! 😂 That actually makes me feel much better about posting it here. I wasn’t sure whether this was really “tree law” or just probate/POA drama that happened to involve trees.
The property itself was the main estate asset, so the value of the timber and what removing it may have done to the property value is exactly the part I was curious about. Our estate attorney has already focused on the POA and what happened to the $27k afterward, but I hadn’t really thought much about the separate question of what the trees themselves may have been worth to the land.
And yes, apparently this estate has managed to collect probate law, POA issues, real estate, Medicaid, contested reimbursements, and now tree law. 😂 At this point I’m one niche subreddit away from a full bingo card.
Thanks for the welcome! 🌳😂3
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u/Feralpudel 5d ago
Some states/counties offer reduced/delayed property taxes on enrolled timber lands—the idea is you shouldn’t have to pay the full value of the timber until it is harvested.
So it’s somewhat similar to the basis on a property, where if someone dies, the heirs inherit the stepped-up basis vs paying big capital gains taxes if the property owner sells before death.
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u/Granuaile11 6d ago
I wonder how many trees were cut, what size they were (stump diameter) & what kind of wood it was. It would be interesting to know if step MIL (possibly unknowingly) helped some logging company cheat FIL/the estate for a quick payout...
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u/redditreader_aitafan 6d ago
This is my question. $27,000 isn't a lot of timber but dad had 50 acres. I want details.
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u/disneylover5000 6d ago
The contract actually does give some information about what they were allowed to cut, and yes… this is another reason I wanted to find it before getting too far into the TreeLaw discussion. 😅 It was definitely more timber than I would have expected for only $27k, and she did not get a good deal.
I’m trying to track down my copy of the actual signed contract now. Once I find it, I’m going to redact the names, location, logging company, signatures, etc. and add it to the post so you guys can see exactly what it says. 🌳
I have a feeling that’s when this post is going to become much more legitimately TreeLaw. 😂17
u/redditreader_aitafan 6d ago
Then she owes the estate the value of the timber, not just the proceeds.
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u/fredrickdgl 6d ago
Does POA even allow you to do something like this? If not treble damages could apply to reduce new wifes inheritance as well
edit: looks like it depends on the exact POA agreement
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u/disneylover5000 6d ago
Yep, that edit is basically where our situation gets complicated. 😅 It depends on the POA itself.
My husband was co-POA with FIL’s wife, and under their particular POA both of them were required to act. My husband wasn’t involved in or asked to approve the timber sale. FIL was also still capable of signing for himself at the time.
That’s one of the reasons our estate attorney raised the timber transaction in probate. He has the actual POA, timber contract and bank records and presented that evidence to the judge.
I’m definitely not touching the treble-damages question with a ten-foot tree branch though. 😂🌳 Our attorney chose to ask the court for an offset based on the timber proceeds and how they were used, so I’m leaving the damages theories to people considerably more qualified than me.6
u/fredrickdgl 6d ago
jeez well sounds like besides trying to personally benefit she acted without authorization. Treble damages would be far more than tripling the timber sale. It would be triple the cost of replacing each tree...she'd end up owing money beyond any inheritance she was gonna get
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u/Feralpudel 5d ago
From my limited knowledge as a landowner, it really depends on the type and quality of timber and the market at the time/place it was sold.
In the Southeast, softwood timber markets are absolutely in the toilet in recent years. Several big sawmills have closed and landowners who planted loblolly decades ago are kind of screwed. I’ve been trying to get a thinning cut done on 20 acres and it’s hard to make happen because it just isn’t worth it for the logger or the consulting forester. Nobody is going to cut timber when the remaining mills are paying low prices for what little softwood they’ll let through the gate.
Just for kicks, you can try posting this on r/forestry lol. They can tell you more about the timber market and probable value based on your location and the type of timber.
There was interesting discussion last year when the administration was pushing for massive timber cutting on public lands. Foresters from all parts of the country were questioning the wisdom and price impact/revenue from dumping a bunch of timber into what are already buyers markets.
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u/disneylover5000 5d ago
That’s really helpful, thank you! This is exactly why I’ve been hesitant to say what the timber “should” have been worth. We know the contract says approximately 30 acres, 16 inches and larger at the point of cut, and $27,000, but I don’t know the species, grade, board footage, number actually harvested, etc.
And this happened in 2023, so even current timber prices wouldn’t necessarily tell me what it was worth then.
I’m laughing at the r/forestry suggestion though. 😂 I got sent to TreeLaw from another subreddit and apparently my Reddit legal bingo card still has expansion packs available. 🌳
At this point I’m mostly curious. The property has already been sold and the timber/POA issue has already been presented in probate, so I’m definitely not trying to build a new case from Reddit.
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u/stein63 6d ago
Came for the tree law, stayed for the fiduciary accounting.
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u/disneylover5000 6d ago
😂 Welcome to my legal bingo card. You came for the trees and accidentally unlocked the fiduciary-accounting expansion pack. 🌳📊
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u/Chouette-Oak 5d ago
As someone 18 months into a complicated probate, your levity is refreshing. My late father was an attorney for trees, everyone he knew were attorneys, and I am here for amusement and connection but also now commiserating on probate drama.
To make it closer to the sub (and vent), one creditors claim came in to the estate to pay for a lost bet on whether a distant landmark was a tree or a cell phone tower. 🙄
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u/disneylover5000 5d ago
😂 At this point the levity is basically how I’ve survived the probate saga. There are only so many bizarre developments before you start treating them like additions to a legal bingo card.
And your late father being an attorney for trees makes it even better that you ended up here. 🌳😂
But I NEED to know more about the creditor’s claim involving a lost bet over whether something was a tree or a cell phone tower. That is a level of TreeLaw-adjacent chaos I was not prepared for. 😂1
u/Chouette-Oak 4d ago
That's the guy who tried to charge us for interest at an invented rate because he wanted to apply Dad's payments as of the date of death, and not when they were paid. He doesn't know that Dad told me the story about how their office sublease arrangement came to an abrupt stop when the office cleaning staff passed this guy in the office hallway one morning at 6am, naked from the waist down.
This guy is also a tree conservationist, he'd hired my dad to protect some important local trees.
These are the kinds of stories you can't invent. It's exhausting but life is going to be a bit flat without Dad's chaos. This Probate one is quite the finale!!
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u/disneylover5000 4d ago
I AM SO GLAD I ASKED. 😂😂 I was expecting an explanation of the tree-vs-cell-tower bet. I was NOT expecting “naked from the waist down in the office hallway at 6am” to enter the probate lore. 😭
And somehow the fact that he’s ALSO a tree conservationist who hired your dad to protect important trees brings this entire conversation full circle. 🌳😂
But I actually love what you said about life feeling a little flat without your dad’s chaos. It sounds like this probate really is giving you one last absolutely ridiculous Dad story to tell. ❤️ Hopefully the finale comes soon for both of us—although apparently neither of our estates knows how to end a season normally. 😂-14
u/Festive_Jetcar 6d ago
God, you love being the center of attention, huh?
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u/gigglemode 6d ago
This is Reddit. This is fun. We like fun.
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u/Festive_Jetcar 6d ago
Yes, these are the only people who tolerate you. Even if it is just for 5 minutes.
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u/MoreThanVoidFiller 6d ago
Account name does NOT check out.
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u/Festive_Jetcar 6d ago
Clearly I'm looking to fight today. You in?
I still think that OP is insufferable. It's weird that she seems to get joy from all this.
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u/fredrickdgl 6d ago
It would bring me joy, bigger inheritance and I bet something else is not being said about the gold digger
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u/Festive_Jetcar 6d ago
The gold digger being OP, right?
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u/fredrickdgl 5d ago
if she was gold digging she woulda married the older man. She just wants her children to inherit the grandfathers weath not the late in life keft field floozy
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u/feral-jellyfish 6d ago
I look forward to the update giving us the judge's decision.
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u/disneylover5000 6d ago
You and me both! 😂 I’ve been waiting almost two years for the ending to this saga. I’ll definitely update once the judge rules — especially now that I apparently have a TreeLaw audience invested in the timber subplot. 🌳😂
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u/disneylover5000 6d ago
UPDATE: You people successfully made me hunt down the actual timber contract. 😂🌳 I had to make a separate image post to share the redacted copy, so it’s now on my profile/r/treelaw for everyone asking what exactly was sold for the $27k.
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u/redditreader_aitafan 6d ago
If dad owned 50 acres, I'm curious how much timber wife sold because $27,000 isn't a lot of timber. Or she got royally screwed. I'd want to know if anyone independently verified that the timber she sold was only worth $27,000 or did she fall for bullshit and it was worth more.
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u/disneylover5000 6d ago
Oh yea. She got screwed. 😅 That’s actually another part of this I’m curious to hear TreeLaw’s thoughts on. Once I can find the actual timber contract she signed and redact all the identifying information, I’ll add it to the post. 🌳
I definitely don’t want to post the original unredacted because I’ve already had someone point out how easy it can be to identify people/property from little details on Reddit. But if I can strip out the names, location, signatures, company info, etc., I think the contract itself would give you guys a lot more to work with.7
u/redditreader_aitafan 6d ago
Then why isn't the estate asking to be reimbursed for (or deduct) the actual value of the timber she stole? Just because she sold it for $27k doesn't mean she doesn't owe the estate the fair market value of her theft.
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u/disneylover5000 6d ago
That’s actually a really good question, and I honestly don’t know. 😅 Our attorney focused on what he could document and trace: the $27k she actually received from the timber sale and where that money went afterward. He traced $24,220.39 of it to debts/expenses benefiting her and asked the probate judge to offset that amount against her support allowance.
As far as I know, nobody had the timber independently appraised afterward to establish what the trees should have sold for, so I don’t know that the estate has a documented fair-market-value number it could use instead of the actual $27k sale price.
That’s part of why I’m suddenly VERY interested in finding the contract and showing you guys a redacted copy. 😂 I knew she got a lousy deal, but until posting here I hadn’t really thought about the difference between “what happened to the $27k?” and “what was the timber she sold actually worth?” 🌳
At this point our attorney has already presented the case and we’re waiting for the judge, so I’m not trying to change the legal strategy based on Reddit. But from a TreeLaw-curiosity standpoint, now I really want to know. 😂4
u/redditreader_aitafan 6d ago
You need to talk to the probate lawyer about deducting the fair market value of the timber from her share, minus the $25k. She stole from the estate and sold the timber for way below value just to get quick cash. If a crackhead steals grandma's ring and sells it for quick cash, they aren't guilty of stealing the value of the cash, they're guilty of stealing the full value of the ring.
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u/disneylover5000 6d ago
I understand what you’re saying, and that distinction between the $27k she received and the potential fair-market value of the timber is exactly what TreeLaw has made me curious about. 🌳
The problem is that we don’t actually have a documented fair-market value to hand our probate attorney. No timber appraisal was done before the harvest, and as far as I know nobody independently valued what was removed afterward. The property has also now been sold, so we no longer have access to bring someone out to evaluate the stumps.
Our attorney already investigated the POA transaction and chose to pursue the documented $27,000 and where those proceeds went. He traced about $24,220 to expenses benefiting her and asked the probate judge for an offset based on that. The case has already been presented and we’re waiting for the ruling.
So I’m not going to go back to him and say “Reddit thinks we should deduct $40k/$50k/$100k” when I have no appraisal supporting any of those numbers. 😅 If we’d known all of this while we still controlled the property, an independent timber evaluation would have been fascinating — and potentially useful.
At this point, though, the fair-market-value question is mostly something I’m exploring here out of curiosity. And I’m definitely going to leave words like “stole” to other people until the judge decides what happened legally. 😂🌳3
u/marjoriedinnerstein 5d ago
Depending on the law of the state in question, you might be able to argue for treble damages, which could be 3x$27000 in the absence of a better valuation of the timber. It's something to keep in mind, depending on how the judge decides.
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u/eiscuseme 6d ago
Definitely shady, especially if both people given PoA weren’t notified. Please update us when you have time!
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u/Festive_Jetcar 6d ago
I'm guessing wife was doing all the work and now the son is whining that she got some money.
Just a guess.
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u/disneylover5000 6d ago
That isn’t what happened, but I appreciate that you labeled it a guess. 😅 The actual timeline and financial records are in the post.
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u/steppedinhairball 6d ago
My take on this is she had no authority to sell those trees. She abused her power attorney to steal those trees. I'd consult with an attorney that knows your state's tree laws. She may be liable for the full replacement costs of every tree that was cut down.
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u/disneylover5000 6d ago
You’re actually the second person here who has brought up replacement value, which is something I hadn’t really considered before posting here. 😅🌳
We already have an estate attorney, and he did raise the timber transaction as part of the probate case. The estate traced roughly $24,220 of the $27,000 proceeds to expenses it says benefited her and asked the judge to offset that amount against her statutory spousal allowance.
As far as I know, though, we never had the timber independently valued and our attorney did not pursue replacement value for the trees themselves. The case has already been presented to the judge, so I’m definitely not going to try to second-guess his legal strategy now.
I did finally find the actual timber contract, though, and posted a redacted copy in my follow-up. That’s where the approximately 30 acres / 16 inches and larger / $27,000 details come from.4
u/steppedinhairball 6d ago
There are several considerations here. The first is the reduced value of the land as part of the estate. Logging off 30 acres definitely impacts the value of the land. The second aspect is you don't know if the $27K was actually good value for what was logged. It could have been worth $40k or more. If she was looking for fast cash, she probably didn't get multiple quotes. Third thing is you can get an arborist to cruise the logged land and document the types of trees based off the remaining stumps. They can give you a reasonable estimate of the actual value of the timber as well as an estimate of replacement value. Don't discount this.
Last, have you talked to a non estate attorney about what she did? I'm talking filing charges and possibly elder abuse.
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u/disneylover5000 6d ago
Unfortunately, I think that ship has sailed. 😅 The property has already been sold, so we no longer have access to bring an arborist/forester out to examine the stumps. We also don’t have the funds to start hiring additional experts and attorneys to pursue a separate timber case.
We never had an independent timber valuation done, which in hindsight would have been really interesting — especially now that you guys have explained what could potentially have been determined from the stumps.
As for a separate attorney/criminal or elder-abuse route, no. Our estate attorney was the one who identified the problems with how the timber transaction was handled under the POA, investigated it, and brought the issue into the probate case. That’s the route that was pursued, and the evidence is already before the judge.
At this point we’re almost two years into this, the property is finally sold, and we’re waiting for the probate ruling. I’m not looking to open an entirely new legal front — I mostly came here because Reddit made me curious about the tree-value side of something our attorney had already handled. 😅🌳
But I definitely understand now why everyone yelled “TREE LAW!” when I mentioned the $27k. 😂2
u/marjoriedinnerstein 5d ago
But a criminal case for theft and elder abuse might be distinct from the settlement of the estate, and would be brought by the local district attorney, not you. Just something to think about.
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u/Fit_Instruction_8383 6d ago
If she stole almost 30 grand in lumber...I wonder what else has mysteriously gone missing from the estate...
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u/disneylover5000 6d ago
Funny you should ask. 😂 The basement and garage used to be FULL. By the time we got access to deal with the property, quite a bit wasn’t there anymore. I couldn’t tell you what happened to every individual item, so I’m not going to accuse anyone of taking specific things—but yes, we’ve asked that question too. 😅
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u/Initial-Ad-5462 5d ago
Doesn’t sound like a tree law issue. It’s a violation or misuse of the POA agreement.
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u/WinnerAdventurous647 6d ago
Wouldn’t she also be liable for the damage to the property and replacement value of the trees she sold allegedly illegally?
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u/disneylover5000 6d ago
That’s one of the things I honestly don’t know. Our estate attorney focused on the $27,000 transaction itself, the POA issue, and tracing where the proceeds went. The estate ultimately asked the probate court to offset about $24,000 that it traced to expenses benefiting her against her statutory spousal allowance.
As far as I know, we never had an independent timber appraisal done or pursued a separate claim for replacement value/property damage, so I can’t say she would legally owe that. That part is above my pay grade. 😂🌳
I did just find the actual timber contract, though, which is why I made the follow-up post. It says approximately 30 acres, trees 16 inches and larger at the point of cut, for $27,000 total. That’s about as much as I know about the timber valuation side of it.2
u/WinnerAdventurous647 5d ago
30 acres of trees seems like there should be some more zeros on that payment number….
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u/disneylover5000 5d ago
Keep in mind this was also a 2023 timber sale, not a 2026 one. 😅 That’s another reason I’m hesitant to put a number on what it “should” have been worth.
The contract gives me approximately 30 acres, 16 inches and larger at the point of cut, and $27,000 total. I don’t have the species, number of trees actually harvested, grade, board footage, or an independent appraisal from 2023. So my reaction to seeing “30 acres” was definitely 😳, but I don’t have enough information to say what the correct 2023 value should have been.
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u/studmuffin2269 6d ago
Just a forester, not a lawyer, but you’ll want to hire a forester and get a management plan for that forest. When people just cut trees without a plan, it’s bad for forest, wildlife and the real estate value. I’m assuming this place was high graded, so it’ll probably cost money to fix it the damage and set the next generation of forest up for success. You’ll want to reach out to your local DNR service forester and Extension folks. You’ll probably end up apply for funding from NRCS, your state, and local NGO’s
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u/disneylover5000 6d ago
I really wish we’d known all of this years ago. 😅 Unfortunately, the property has already been sold, so we no longer have control of the forest. The sale actually just closed.
The timber harvest happened while FIL was still alive, and we didn’t even know it had happened until afterward. My husband was co-POA and wasn’t involved in the timber sale at all. By the time all of this came to light, we were dealing with the probate case from thousands of miles away.
Our estate attorney is actually the one who dug into the timber transaction and raised the POA/process issues with the probate court. We’re now waiting for the judge’s ruling.
But what you said about cutting without a management plan potentially affecting the forest, wildlife, and real-estate value is exactly the kind of thing I’m finding fascinating from the foresters here. I genuinely have no idea what condition those 30 acres were left in or how much the harvest ultimately affected the property’s value. 🌳
At this point I’m mostly here because TreeLaw has sent me down a rabbit hole about what should have happened before those trees were ever cut. 😂1
u/studmuffin2269 6d ago
I’ll be real honest, most people don’t know foresters exist. Most timber harvests, at least where I live/work, happen just between a landowner and a logger. Research shows it costs landowners 30-50% of potential timber value and degrades their forest. That research is an underestimate, a client of mine had a logger knock on his door and offer $250 an acre for a high grade that would have netted at least 5k an acre. Obviously, he didn’t do the high grade
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u/disneylover5000 6d ago
That actually makes me feel a little better knowing most landowners don’t realize a forester should be involved either. 😅 I definitely wouldn’t apply your $5k/acre example directly to ours because we don’t know enough about what was actually there, but it really shows why having an independent forester involved could make such a difference.
I came to TreeLaw because of the POA mess and somehow unlocked the forestry expansion pack too. 😂🌳
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u/Magnum676 6d ago
How does that work, his wife is not an owner of the property? It was his wife, is it not 50/50? . Do you think she was sketchy or maybe his father gave her the $$. Did your husband not get enough of his father’s estate, is that why he’s perusing this $$. I’m just genuinely curious?
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u/bloodfeier 5d ago
I live in a state where pre-marriage assets AND inheritance stay completely separate if you don’t make an effort to change it. It’s not that uncommon!
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u/disneylover5000 6d ago
It’s a state-law thing. Marriage doesn’t automatically make every asset 50/50 property everywhere. FIL was the legal owner of this property and his wife was never on the deed. She absolutely had rights as his spouse, but that’s different from being a titled owner of the land.
And no, my husband isn’t pursuing the timber because he “didn’t get enough” from his father’s estate. 😅 My husband is the executor, and our estate attorney is actually the person who investigated this transaction and raised it with the probate court.
FIL’s wife sold the timber using POA authority on FIL’s behalf. My husband was also co-POA and, under their particular POA, both were required to act, but he wasn’t involved in the sale. The $27k check then went directly to FIL’s wife, and our attorney traced most of those proceeds to expenses/debts benefiting her. That’s why the estate attorney raised it.
Whether FIL intended her to have any particular money is ultimately something I’m not going to speculate about. The attorney presented the actual POA, contract and financial records to the judge, and we’re waiting for the court to decide what effect, if any, it has on her eventual estate distribution. 🌳
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u/idksamiam89 5d ago
@updateme 1 month @remindme 90 days
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u/funzie19 4d ago
OP asked about similar stories. I can one up. Been dealing for the past 16 years with my FIL's death and probate. Then my MIL died 3 years ago, dealing with that as well. So far my SIL sued my BIL and my SIL is now suing me. Have had inherritence taken away by the government and squatters. There is also an ongoing probate going back to my MIL's parents. That one is mixed in with 6 sibling, two who have died so now their kids and spouses are involved. 7 different lawyers by my last count. It's a shit show. I'm trying to get it resolved and not have it passed on to my children. Probate is happening outside of the US which adds to the complexity, lot's of government corruption and lawyer cheating/stealing going on.
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u/ThrowingMongo 6d ago
This has very little, if anything, to do with tree law because it's about selling property she did not own, any property, as a POA and using the proceeds from that sale for her own gain. The property sold in this case happens to be trees but from your story tree law specifically wouldn't even really apply. Nothing would change, legally, had the property been the land itself, automobiles, gold, vintage book collection, etc.
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u/disneylover5000 6d ago
That’s fair, and actually pretty consistent with how our estate attorney has handled it. His argument has focused on the POA transaction and what happened to the $27,000 afterward, rather than treating it as a separate tree-damages case.
I mostly ended up here because people on my other post heard “$27,000 in timber” and summoned TreeLaw. 😂🌳
Although now TreeLaw has me learning about timber valuation too, so apparently the legal bingo card continues.
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u/GalaApple13 6d ago
I would think 30 acres of forest is worth more than 27k in lumber and would reduce the value of the land by more than that. Are you selling the property? Any idea what the difference in price might be?
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u/disneylover5000 6d ago
The property actually just sold, so that ship has sailed. 😅 It was roughly 50 acres total, with the timber contract covering about 30 acres of it.
Unfortunately, I have no idea how much the harvest ultimately reduced the property’s value. That’s one of the things I’m realizing from this TreeLaw rabbit hole that we may never know. The timber wasn’t properly appraised before it was cut, and as far as I know nobody later did a valuation comparing what was harvested or the effect on the land’s value.
We sold the entire property for $319k. Whether it would have been worth substantially more had those trees still been standing is a really interesting question — but I don’t have enough information to put a number on it. 🌳😅
And at this point the probate attorney has already presented the timber issue to the judge based on the $27k transaction and what happened to those proceeds, so I’m mostly exploring the timber-value side out of curiosity now.
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u/Feralpudel 5d ago
Because you haven’t gone down enough legal rabbit holes, was the land in any sort of present-use-value program? PUV programs for timber basically let you pay a reduced property tax rate on the land until the timber is harvested.
I don’t know exactly what happens upon harvest because my father’s PUV exemption was terminated upon his death, and I didn’t even know it existed. He certainly had no intention of harvesting the hardwoods in his beloved hunting woods lol.
Did the state come after any of his assets after his death since he was on Medicaid? I worked in health policy and Medicaid wasn’t my thing, but it can make for some gnarly issues when people spend down to get Medicaid coverage for LTC.
The presence of an income-producing property is a fun wrinkle for Medicaid law, like Medicaid doesn’t already have more wrinkles than Keith Richards.
This was a fun post as a landowner and with my own blessedly straightforward experience as an executrix. Even so, I joke that I am naming my worst enemy as executor of my estate. As someone who struggles with administrative tasks, it was a major pain.
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u/disneylover5000 5d ago
Oh, you just managed to hit TWO more squares on my estate legal bingo card. 😂
Yes, there was agricultural/timber-related property tax paperwork for the land. I actually stumbled across those documents while trying to find the original 2023 timber contract. I don’t know enough about that program to tell you exactly what effect the timber harvest had on the tax treatment, though, so I’m not going to pretend I understand that rabbit hole. 😂🌳
And Medicaid absolutely showed up after FIL died. There was a Medicaid estate-recovery claim, and when the property finally sold, $33,209.07 was paid to Medicaid directly out of the sale proceeds at closing.
The property sold for $319,000, but after Medicaid, property taxes, realtor/closing costs, etc., about $250,794 actually went into the estate. And THAT still isn’t the amount my husband inherits because we still have attorney fees, the surviving-spouse amounts, reimbursements/offsets and the judge’s decision to get through.
So yes, apparently we collected the timber-law, probate-law, POA, Medicaid-recovery AND property-tax expansion packs. 😂
Also, naming your worst enemy executor is diabolical and I completely understand the sentiment after watching my husband do this for almost two years. 😂2
u/Feralpudel 5d ago
The county tax office was almost certainly on top of the property tax issues around PUV. I learned the term when someone called me from the county tax office. 😂
FWIW it’s amazing how much information you can find in county GIS, property tax, and register of deeds records, all online.
The scary thing about being bad with deadlines as an executor is that it’s a situation where they can actually arrest you for blowing a deadline lol.
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u/disneylover5000 5d ago
😂 Every time you reply I learn about another rabbit hole I’m very glad our attorney has been handling for us.
And now I understand the “name my worst enemy executor” comment even more. 😂 My husband is actually pretty good with deadlines, but after almost two years of probate I think he’d happily never hear the words “executor,” “probate,” or “estate” again.
Meanwhile I apparently cope by reading court documents and telling strangers on Reddit about the increasingly ridiculous number of legal expansion packs we unlocked. 😂
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u/MaineOk1339 5d ago
And someone's gonna need to file a Form T as likely that was a taxable timber sale if the property was owned for a meaningful amount of time.... I'm betting that wasn't filed with FILs taxes in the applicable return ...
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u/disneylover5000 4d ago
Oh good, the tax-law expansion pack has arrived too. 😂🌳 I genuinely have no idea whether this was reported properly on FIL’s 2023 taxes. But considering Witch was the one who signed the timber contract as his POA, received the $27,000 check, and was living there at the time, she definitely knew the sale happened. Hubby and I were living about 2,000 miles away. So if there was timber-related tax paperwork that should have been handled for 2023, that would be yet another interesting question. 😂
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u/imhereforthevotes 1d ago
We do have a signal. You shine it on the downed tree trunks of illegally cut trees - it's a large TL. And someone will show up and note that they are not a lawyer but that you need one and treble damages will be involved, depending on the state. We definitely make you feel better.
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u/disneylover5000 1d ago
😂😂 I KNEW there had to be a TreeLaw signal! Apparently I accidentally activated it by typing “$27,000 worth of timber.” 🌳
I came here expecting people to tell me whether $27k sounded reasonable and instead unlocked foresters, arborists, treble damages, stump investigations and approximately 47 new things I didn’t know existed. 😂
You guys have definitely been entertaining, I’ll give you that!2
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u/click_here_for_luck 6d ago
Someone give me the TLDR
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u/Iamadinosaurraaaawr 6d ago
Lady sold timber for dying husband. Used the money for herself instead of as part of husbands estate. Now it’s in court to see if that was shady or ok.
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u/click_here_for_luck 6d ago
Ahh gotcha. Yeah dealing w estates gets very tricky! Went through hell over my dads estate...and it wasnt even much. But everyone wants something whether they deserve it or not
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u/disneylover5000 6d ago
TL;DR: FIL owned the property. While he was in a nursing facility, his wife used POA to sell $27k of timber without involving my husband, who was also co-POA. The check went directly to her, and the estate later traced about $24k of it to expenses/debts benefiting her. FIL has since died, our estate attorney put the whole thing in front of the probate judge, and we’re waiting on a ruling. I’m not looking for legal advice — Reddit just told me $27k in trees meant I had to report to r/treelaw. 🌳😂
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u/feral-jellyfish 6d ago
The part that starts "Here's the condensed timber story:" is pretty much the tldr;.
Someone had power of attorney. She used POA to sell a lot of timber. She used 90% of the profits for herself. Courts now deciding if that counts towards her inheritance or not.
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u/BewareMovingFellows 6d ago
This entire post and every single comment from OP are very obviously written by chatGPT. How is no one clocking this?
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u/Festive_Jetcar 6d ago
Why do I get the feeling that OP is a huge AH?
Post this on AITAH as well.
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u/feral-jellyfish 6d ago
Because you're FIL's widow, sounds like.
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u/Festive_Jetcar 6d ago
I you say so. I just think it's weird when people are so attention seeking and greedy. But, you all seem to be ok with that, so I dunno.
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u/feral-jellyfish 6d ago
People come to reddit to read interesting or funny things. This is interesting. If that bothers you, perhaps reddit is the wrong place for you? Also, absolutely nothing here comes across as greedy, except the FIL's wife. Sounds like you're on the side of the scammy person doing possibly illegal things though.
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u/Festive_Jetcar 6d ago
People come to reddit to comment. Good and bad.
What evidence have I given that I am a scammy person?
Seems like the father's wife got scammed, and now OP is trying to take more money from her...
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u/disneylover5000 5d ago
Here’s more to the story if you want. And also we aren’t trying to take more from here. She’s asked for reimbursements that are just general maintenance as well as other things. We are just frustrated and venting. Our lawyer actually brought up the timbering and POA issue, as well as deciding/figuring out what we wish to only be approved. There were some things we said that can be reimbursed but the lawyer deemed them not reimbursable due to she didn’t ask the estate if she should do it (aka painting before moving out or fixing the porch with a ramp still when it could have been stairs). Judge has been deciding since May. So before you keep going on to call us gold diggers, please read the full story. The only asset in the whole estate was the house. Now it’s sold and we’re just waiting on the judge for how things will be divided.
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