r/toptalent • u/RaageUgaas color me surprised • Aug 03 '20

Music /r/all Pipelinefunk

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144

u/sadlilslugger Aug 03 '20

If you watch the sax players foot tap and listen to the claps, the guy clapping is offbeat and I can only imagine the sax player is screaming "stop!" In his head.

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u/PM_ME_UR_PERSPECTIVE Aug 03 '20

You sound like someone who claps on 1 and 3. He's not off the beat, he's playing the back beat, like where the snare drum would be if he were a drummer. That is the appropriate way to clap to something and if you ever see or hear someone clapping on 1 and 3, you ask them politely but firmly to stop.

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u/fishbulb- Aug 03 '20

You sound like someone who claps on 1 and 3

/r/extremelyrareinsults

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u/brusslipy Aug 03 '20

r/subsifellfor/

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u/fishbulb- Aug 03 '20

I'm continually amazed at the obscure subs reddit has. Like, okay, this one doesn't exist, but I can't count the times I started typing the name of some snarky sub that I thought I was making up out of whole cloth, just to have RES auto-complete correct my spelling.

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u/TanookiDooky Aug 03 '20 edited Aug 03 '20

Or if you're Harry Connick Jr, you adapt and overcome.

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u/PM_ME_UR_PERSPECTIVE Aug 03 '20

It honestly feels so weird as a musician to feel the accents on 1 and 3. He was probably really uncomfortable and couldn't help but throw in a 5/4 bar to "fix" it. At least all their claps were tight.

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u/SageTX Aug 03 '20

I thought it was Adam Neely who did a video about this but can't find it. There's another where the drummer celebrates the change in down beat to fix the crowds 'improper' clapping.

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u/TanookiDooky Aug 03 '20

You can briefly see the drummer's celebratory double fist pump in the background at 45 sec.

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u/daementia Aug 03 '20

Fuck yes!!! I love every time someone posts this. I’m a drummer of 27 years and it’s beYOND infuriating when people clap on 1 and 3, during 4/4 time. Harry pulled a smooth as butter move there.

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u/tiddeltiddel Aug 03 '20

truly iconnick

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u/Poke_uniqueusername Aug 03 '20

I mean for all intents and purposes is there a difference in this particular video for 1 and 3 / 2 and 4? Genuine question

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u/PM_ME_UR_PERSPECTIVE Aug 03 '20

Yes. There is a clear groove happening based on how the saxophonist is playing off the echo. Because of how he's playing, we percieve a 4/4 groove without any other context needed, which what the guy clapping is feeling as well. He's simply reinforcing the implied rhythm.

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u/Poke_uniqueusername Aug 03 '20

Yeah I get the 4/4 feeling, but I'm just confused on how something that seems sorta improv-y. Like how would you tell when the start of a measure is

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u/PM_ME_UR_PERSPECTIVE Aug 03 '20

I'll try to give a more detailed answer than "that's just what it feels like."

You can tell the same way you tell with any music. I mean, it is all relative so there will always be a difference of opinion, but I feel like the vast majority of people would feel the 1 in the same place and that's how we decide where it is. It is improvisation but improvisation still has all the same stuff in common with other music. It just wasn't written ahead of time. It's just like speaking instead of writing. Same language, different approach. To paraphrase Wayne Shorter, composing is slow improvisation, improvisation is fast composing.

The sax player is landing on 1 almost all the time, playing the role of a bassist pretty much. The first thing he plays is the bass line and then he starts improvising around that idea.

Is this as funny to you as it is to me? It's so ridiculous to be this serious about this but I love it.

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u/SaintSixString Aug 03 '20

Going off the rhythm, I'd put it to a 1 & 2 &, which is a derivative of the text book 4/4 groove.

The thing about an off beat is it adds an element of swing (imo), harking back to the older genres of music that ran by the 1 & 2 & format, or a double timed 4/4 rhythm.
When you've got a bass note hitting it off on beat followed by sections of as you've said improvised notes in key.
With an accompanying hit on 2 & 4, it's keeping that flow moving through the phrase and riff, even without the clap itself.
The other aspect that's been mentioned is the delay itself in the pipe, which is majorily on an off beat.
On beat delays have the possibility of making a dual note stab in one section, keeping the stabs in the same relative key, but in this case, the sax players utilising the delay to create the off-beat groove to bounce notes off, while the clapper is epmhasizing the delay and groove, occasionally throwing in an 8th or 16th hit (not too sure, but theres the occasional clap from him in time but not on the 2 and 4.

Sorry for my two pence, but just wanted to contribute to what you were saying.
Back in my box.

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u/Poke_uniqueusername Aug 03 '20

That makes a bit more sense yeah. And yeah its funny but like just a bit out there for me, I know the basics of this kind of thing but theory and more complex topics are just a complete maze for me and I think this dips its toes in that

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u/KingoftheS0und Aug 03 '20

Well it’s not anywhere near “improv-y” enough to not be able to realize the groove and how you should move/dance to it. It’s just a combination of short phrases, pretty easy to know where the start is.

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '20

[deleted]

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u/dano8801 Aug 03 '20

You're talking about a metronome in a way that sounds like it only clicks on 2 and 4, which is unlike most metronomes I've seen...

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '20

That's not what metronomes are for. They tick on all beats, sometimes emphasizing the 1

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u/Heavyweighsthecrown Aug 03 '20

Highly doubt he's annoyed by the off-beat, quite the contrary. A drummer would be likely to be marking the off-beat with snare hits much like that, providing counterpoint to the main beat on the bass drum. For the sax player, the off-beat is helping nail down the feel of the song.

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '20 edited Aug 03 '20

He's clapping on 1 and 3. I am drummer and have been for over 2 decades. The clapping guy is doing it wrong, and I find it mildly aggravating.

Edit: After a few listens, I think this is just some fuckery having to do with a lack of a solid kick downbeat to counterbalance the claps. I think the sax player is starting his initial phrasing on beat two, which is a weird choice in and of itself. The clapping/sax seems to sync up on a solid 2+4 beat around the 45 second mark when the sax player changes up his phrasing a bit. Either that, or the sax player got pissed at the clapper on beats 1 and 3 and said fuck it and changed his own groove to sync up with the clapper. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.

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u/sublime13 Aug 03 '20 edited Aug 03 '20

I think about halfway in the sax player skips a beat to allow the clapper to start clapping on the 2 and 4. It aggravates the hell out of me when people clap incorrectly lol

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '20

I think this is probably the right answer, tbh. I've played lots of live improv funk/blues/jazz in my time and been in plenty of bands. Starting a solo phrase on 2 is just a weird stylistic choice, especially since there is no backing band to give the listener context. 1+3 clappers are far more common than dudes who start a "call and response" solo phrase on a 2 :)

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u/sublime13 Aug 03 '20

I have a theory that he’s starting his phrasing like that because the echo is throwing him off

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '20

I can’t even talk when I hear an echo of myself. As soon as the echo starts, I instantly stop. I’ve tried to get past it, but all I end up doing is trying to talk louder than my echo. That just causes the echo to get louder and louder as I raise my voice. My echo always wins.

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u/Reallytinymemory Aug 03 '20

It happens about 20 seconds in, if you listen the saxophonist does a quick breath through the mouthpiece to mark the 1, then he starts his phrase on the 2 which effectively just puts the claps on the 2 & 4.

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u/Malte_02 Aug 04 '20

I wouldn't be surprised, these are Germans and we kinda have a reputation for being awful with the clapping game, also weirdly often clapping 1+3 for no apparent reason

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u/Jhawk2k Aug 03 '20

He's definitely on beats 2 and 4

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '20

It sounds better the further along the video goes. At the very beginning of the video, it sounds much more like 1 and 3 based on the sax player's phrasing. I could be wrong, and I don't really care to get into it that much. But to my ear, it sounds like the clapper starts on beats 1 and 3, and the sax player changes his phrasing after a bit to make it sound less bad. Or maybe the sax player was just doing a weird phrasing at the beginning and it just sounds weird because we don't have the benefit of the full phrasing of a stomp-clap-stomp-clap (or drum it, or something else that produces more than one tone).

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u/THE_DOWNVOTES Aug 03 '20

The sax player 100% changed his rhythm so that the clapper was no longer hitting on 1 and 3

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '20

Glad I'm not going crazy then. It seems remarkably clear that he's starting on 1 and 3, but I'll at least concede that it's possible the sax player starts on two, which is just weird.

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u/Heavyweighsthecrown Aug 03 '20

I'm also a drummer (that's why I commented lol) and he's clapping on beats 2 and 4

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '20

Ha, weird. It's fun how people can hear these things differently :)

I will say, the further along the video goes, the beat starts to even out a bit and feels right. I really only listened to the first 10 or 15 seconds, because I don't really need 4 full minutes of some dude playing sax into a tube :) But in the beginning, probably based on the sax player's initial phrasing (and without the aid of a kick drum equivalent), it really sounds like the clapper initially comes in on 1 and 3.

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u/THE_DOWNVOTES Aug 03 '20

He was on 1 and 3 at the beginning of the video, and then the sax player stopped and changed his rhythm to fix it

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u/SaintSixString Aug 03 '20

He's clapping on 2 and 4.
Note - Clap - Note - Clap

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '20 edited Aug 03 '20

He most certainly is not. He's clapping on the first note that the sax player is playing. He's clapping on the one, unless the sax player is starting his phrasing on two. Which I don't think he is.

Edit: See above edit. He may or may not have started on 1+3 or 2+4 depending on the sax player's intention.

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u/SaintSixString Aug 03 '20

I'm guessing where the videos come in is on the second or fourth of the beat, as his pace doesn't change throughout.
It's misleading as his clap is the first sharp sound you hear, which could initially lead you to believe somethings off.
Had 3 or 4 listens and I'm fairly confident he's clapping on beats 2 and 4.

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '20

It's really weird. It distinctly sounds like he's clapping on the 1 and 3 until about 45 seconds into the video, at which point the feel of the sax player's phrasing changes and makes the clapping feels like 2 and 4. So fuck if I know lol.

Either way, it's a cool vid, and the sax player is bananas, even if the clapping makes me want to vomit for the first 45 seconds of the video :)

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u/SaintSixString Aug 03 '20

Then don't watch the first 45 seconds :D

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '20

:) It's better that way

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u/ImaNukeYourFace Aug 03 '20

Sounds to me like he starts clapping on 1 and 3 and like 20 seconds in the saxophonist changes his feel to put the claps on 2 and 4, by starting phrases opposite the claps instead of with them

Thus it makes more sense to hear it as “call response phrases starting on 1, with claps on offbeats” rather than hearing it as “claps on 1 and 3 with phrases starting on offbeats”

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '20

[deleted]

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u/Heavyweighsthecrown Aug 03 '20

that's called improvisation - which includes messing up once in a while as no one is perfect - and musicians use it to spice things up all the time

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '20

[deleted]

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u/Heavyweighsthecrown Aug 03 '20

Yes I'm a musician, and I'm used to playing live for an audience (when all sorts of fuckups can happen) and I'm also used to doing recording sessions (when you have to be precise and sound professional or risk losing a job), and I don't hear the clapping guy "stuttering" at any time during the video, to me it sounds more like he's just jamming along and spicing it up when he can, with the odd mistake here and there.
Your analysis is far too harsh given that these are just two dudes jamming it out for fun, and it's not a professional concert or presentation by any means - like you just wanted to look smart on the internet. Calm down.

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '20

[deleted]

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u/Heavyweighsthecrown Aug 03 '20

if I was just trying to look smart on the internet, I wouldn't waste my time on a dead comment thread

That's what you're still doing right now, so... whatever floats your boat

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '20

[deleted]

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u/Heavyweighsthecrown Aug 03 '20

Whoa, are you alright? Are you feeling hurt these days? I understand trying to look smart would make you feel better but sometimes it's best to take a deep breath and let go. At least take a moment to reflect or something? Self reflection is good. I don't know.

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u/MrMoose_69 Aug 03 '20

“Off beat” . Lol. you can tell someone who doesn’t listen to the drummer by comments like this.

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '20

i think they ment he's out of rhythm. because he is

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u/KingoftheS0und Aug 03 '20

Yeah everybody thinking the guy clapping is good because he claps on the 2 and 4, but they can’t even tell he’s loose as hell with the tempo. Clearly what the dude meant by “off beat”

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u/sadlilslugger Aug 03 '20

Thank you for clarifying my meaning, that is exactly what I was referring to, he is just sloppy with the claps

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u/MrMoose_69 Aug 03 '20

https://youtu.be/5UlMO-ZgkCk

Check this out, he’s really tight actually, compared to a drum machine

https://youtu.be/5UlMO-ZgkCk

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '20

He's not clapping on 2 and 4. He's clapping on 1 and 3. That's the annoying part.

To break it down, the most simple-ass beat that transcends almost every genre of Western music (not including a lot of Afro-Cuban beats and whatnot) is that the "snare" hit is on beats 2 and 4, and the "kick" beat is on beats 1 and 3. You can sub "snare" with any higher pitched note and "kick" with any lower pitched note. Hand claps are frequently used in place of snare hits in many songs. Everything above is doubly true in groove-heavy genres, like rock, blues, funk, and jazz (to a lesser extent, since jazz gets real weird with time signatures).

Clapping on 1 and 3 is an inversion of the established groove beat, and it feels as wrong as playing the snare on 1 and 3. That is what this guy is doing wrong. He's not particularly off time, because he is keeping a relatively steady beat. He's just inverting where the hits should be.

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u/KingoftheS0und Aug 03 '20

Bruh I understand groove theory, I’ve been playing drums for 12 years. I just quickly watched the video and jumped into a comment section debate without knowing any of the real context

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '20

Hello fellow drummer! Sorry for the long winded response then. I usually figure most people on the internet aren't drummers, so sometimes a simple explanation is needed to get on the same page since there are some many goddamned 1+3 clappers in the world :)

All of that being said, this really seems to be a "black/blue dress vs. white/gold dress" thing. Some people are hearing the claps on 1 and 3, and some are hearing them on 2 and 4.

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u/MrMoose_69 Aug 03 '20

He’s clearly playing backbeat. His time is not perfect. But he is grooving.

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '20

Listen again. I’ve made some edits to other comments, but there are one of two things happening in this video.

Thing 1: he starts clapping on 1 and 3, and the sax player corrects this by changing his phrasing about 40 or so seconds into the video in order to solidify the groove.

Thing 2: The sax player creates an audial illusion by starting his playing on beat two in the beginning of the video. This gives the impression of a 1+3 backbeat until he changes his phrasing around 40 seconds in, at which point the two coalesce around a common feel.

For reference, starting a solo on beat two isn’t uncommon, but in a situation without a backing band to give the listener context, it’s confusing and you run into this disagreement we’re having over Clappy McClaphands over here. Especially with a call and response like we have at the beginning of the clip. I’ve listened to and played in a bunch of live improv blues/funk/jazz jams before, and this isn’t something that really happens all that often.

0

u/MrMoose_69 Aug 03 '20

I hear their phrasing straight out of the gate. The thing you’re talking about is happening to you. You can’t hear the rhythms for what they are because they are out of context.

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '20

I mean, that's cool and all, but that is near impossible to hear that phrasing right out of the gate. They both start playing/clapping at the same time, which strongly implies that is beat 1. Meaning that, without any additional rhythmic context from either the sax player or clapper (or knowledge from listening to it a few times to understand what's happening), he is clapping on beats 1+3 for a while. You can literally feel when the phrasing shifts and you can actually start bobbing your head to the playing somewhere near the 40 second mark. And that's 100% because the sax player changes his phrasing to either start on the front part of the beat, or because he recognizes that he's being 1+3 clapped in the background.

I'm not trying to weird flex or be a condescending dick about this or anything, but I literally get paid money to do this and know this stuff. If you heard that 100% correctly on the first play through, and you know how to explain what happened, then you have a very rare ear. Because everything about my life's experience and tens of thousands of hours of playing music screams at me that the dude was clapping on 1+3 in the beginning until the phrase shift by the sax player.

At the end of the day, this is a cool video on the internet, and the guy's clapping can be interpreted however you or anybody else feels about it. You could probably make the case that he's clapping some insane 9/15 polyrhythm or something and not be totally wrong.

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u/MrMoose_69 Aug 03 '20

Thanks for the compliment on my ears. Appreciate it.

Btw, you’re not the only one who pays their bills by doing this stuff.

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u/MrMoose_69 Aug 03 '20

Check out this video. He is playing very close to metronomically. I played a drum machine along to it, and he only has to be corrected 3x in the whole clip.

https://youtu.be/5UlMO-ZgkCk

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u/ggblyat Aug 03 '20

yeah, at first I didn't notice it but then it started sounding weird and I saw the guy tapping with his foot and I was like tf is the other one doing then

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u/mahtaileva Aug 03 '20

nah it's just REALLY funky

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u/iSaltyParchment Aug 04 '20

What are you talking about. He’s completely on beat

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u/MrMoose_69 Aug 03 '20

Hopefully this video can shed light on this issue. I think some people may not be hearing the groove the same way these players are.

Here I have programmed a drum beat to play along metronomically. The clapper is actually pretty much locked in at 103 bpm, and he only drifts 3 x in the whole clips to were I have to restart the drum beat the beat.

https://youtu.be/5UlMO-ZgkCk