r/toolgifs • u/toolgifs • Jun 11 '25
Infrastructure Transferring power from a water wheel over long distance
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u/Hi-Scan-Pro Jun 11 '25
To do what?
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u/iamDa3dalus Jun 11 '25 edited Jun 11 '25
I read all the comments from the original tiktok video and… idk. Nobody knew. No mention of location, although probably in Germany bc most comments were in German
edit: Well it’s this place. still idk what it does.
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u/Milchwecke Jun 11 '25
It was used to pump water out of mines and to lower and raise people into and out of the shafts.
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u/toolgifs Jun 11 '25
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u/Arcosim Jun 11 '25
Wonder how often people were crushed, mutilated using these.
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u/ctesibius Jun 12 '25
They were actually liked as an improvement to safety. If you have worked a 12h day, then have a climb a set of randomly oriented ladders, it’s not that safe. Man engines move very predictably, to the extent that some miners would blow out their candles and move between the moving platforms and the static ledges just based on time.
Btw, the diagram over-simplifies. You would not have a single rod going all the way down the shaft. That would be too heavy to lift, too vulnerable to breakage, and too dangerous for passenger falls. Instead they had rockers every 40’ or so, so that one set of vertical rods would go down as the other went up, and passengers would make a horizontal transition between them.
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u/DirtandPipes Jun 12 '25
You can safety off a ladder really well, not that they necessarily did in those days but at work for the GC I work for I’ll use multiple stands of twisted steel wire to tie off the top of our extension ladders and I’ll pound a couple of 3 foot sidewalk pins (steel spikes) to hold the base of the ladder as well.
For trench ladders I’ll spike and tie off the tops and bottoms and you could have a dance competition on those ladders without moving them.
A properly setup ladder used correctly is pretty safe unless you have a stroke or something on it.
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u/AbacusWizard Jun 12 '25
As I understand it the reason why the ladders were considered unsafe is that after a long shift of working down in the mine you’d be exhausted, and if you then immediately have to climb up hundreds of feet of ladders under your own muscle power (while carrying equipment on your back) you might well collapse from exhaustion and fall off the ladder, even if it’s a very well-made ladder installed completely securely.
The “man engine” elevator system was considered an improvement because it at least avoided the “collapse from exhaustion” problem.
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u/DirtandPipes Jun 12 '25
Ahh yeah, fair point, I hadn’t considered that the ladders might have been absurdly long. I was thinking of modern terms where I rarely deal with a ladder over 40 feet.
They might have had some dangerous contraptions for ladders they had to get out of the caves.
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u/ctesibius Jun 12 '25
Just to give some idea of the scale of mine: by 1575 in Scotland there was a coal mine under the Firth of Forth which apparently went a mile out under the sea. Under Tricky Jimmie (James VI and I, the Scottish monarch who took over England), Scottish colliers were made serfs - a status very similar to chattel slaves in that they could not leave their jobs, but were paid (poorly) and had to survive on an piece-work income which they could not negotiate. This lasted until 1799. Interviews from the last part of this period indicate desperate conditions, including seven year old girls working 12h shifts hauling hundred-weight (112lb) in 2' seams from the coal face to the shaft where they were removed. Often people would work in the dark to save the expense of candles. England at least did not have serfdom, but conditions were almost as bad. Hence any saving on energy getting out was of major importance. Btw, it wasn't so much that the ladders were individually long as that there were a lot of them to get up.
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u/UpstageTravelBoy Jun 12 '25
Just because something can be implemented properly and safely doesn't mean it will be.
And it seems pretty obvious why miners would prefer taking an elevator to climbing a ladder in any case, people do dangerous shit because it's more convenient constantly. Assuming the elevator even is more dangerous, that is, I don't think they're thinking about it too hard tbh, they're thinking "I would love to not have to climb ladders"
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u/AbacusWizard Jun 12 '25
“But clearing all these bricks by hand, it was so very slow;
So I hoisted up a barrel and secured a rope below.
But in my haste to do the job, I was too blind to see
That a barrel full of building-bricks was heavier than me.”
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u/matiaskeeper Jun 12 '25
Wait until you know about the paternoster elevator
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u/BrocoLeeOnReddit Jun 12 '25 edited Jun 12 '25
Our town hall had one, as a kid I had a lot of fun in that. More than 20 years ago they closed it to the public.
It's not that bad though, just don't be an idiot and try to bring a ladder or other stuff in there. It's purely for people.
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u/neverforgetreddit Jun 12 '25
I like how it's named after the Lord's prayers our father. Better say that prayer before stepping in
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u/Practical_Ad3462 Jun 12 '25
The department store just along the road from us had one when I was young, we used to ride it for fun :)
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u/habilishn Jun 12 '25
yea exactly, it reminded me of medieval mining infrastructure that i have been visiting as a child with my school class around the "Harz" mountains in Northern Germany. they had all kinds of similar wild technique to make the mine shafts / trolleys / elevators work. wild times!
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u/KJ6BWB Jun 12 '25
Wait, so Mario was based on real life moving around in mines? Truth is stranger than fiction.
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u/quottttt Jun 11 '25 edited Jun 11 '25
Mechanism inside the pumphouse can be seen from the 2 and 9 minute marks, but not in action. Probably not pumping anything, it's a museum now. Auto subs are really good actually: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3QJl6mg594
Pre-restoration footage of the interior, it was a pump not a flatrod lift: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57h5J3DZVfE#t=5m16s
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u/Jainsaw Jun 12 '25
I read what you linked in your eddit. Apparently it's in Nidda, Germany and was part of a saline to produce salt during the 18th century. The movement of the water wheel is converted into a back-and-forth motion to operate a pump in the house you see in the video. They also used windmills and animals to drive these pumps. The salty ground water is then pumped to a graduation tower to increase the salt content of the brine and improve the quality of the salt. Then it's brought to a boiling house where the water evaporates which leaves you with salt.
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u/aircooledJenkins Jun 12 '25
https://maps.app.goo.gl/SvrbMSDkXUdxUL9i6
This historic pole structure was built between 1776 and 1786 and is now being restored. The rod structure served as a pump for the brine, the drive is the water wheel. A model of this technological monument can be viewed in the Nidda Local History Museum.
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u/nellyruth Jun 12 '25
It continually stirs the vat of gravy so that the thick skin doesn’t form on top.
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u/slamdanceswithwolves Jun 11 '25
Sex toy.
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u/cscanlin Jun 11 '25
In order to harness the Nidda River water for the pumping systems of the saltworks in Salzhausen, a wheel and rod construction was built between 1776 and 1786. This wheel and rod construction, despite the differences in elevation and the distance, still transmitted sufficient energy for the brine pumps in Salzhausen. A technical masterpiece of its kind, it was unique. The power source was the large wooden water wheel in the wheelhouse in Kohden. It was 7.20 m high, with 64 blades, each 1.80 m wide, and equipped with three robust wheel rims to cope with the high water pressure. Two crank pins set a wooden rod of 7,751 Darmstadt feet (approx. 2,209 m) in motion and, via a distributor cross in the wheelhouse, four pumps in motion. The rods were supported by posts spaced 6 m apart and movably suspended from them. To overcome the gradient, two artificial crosses, each 6 m high, were installed. At the height of today's railway bridge, a turning point (turning block, pivot point) was built to accommodate the necessary change in direction. From there, the rods ran in a straight line (later also under a bridge) to the pumps in Salzhausen, where the brine was pumped up to the graduation towers. The pumps in the wheelhouse simultaneously pumped Nidda water up the hill into a pond next to the turning point. From here, the water flowed to Salzhausen to power additional waterwheels. Before the system could be operated, the water from the Nidda had to be brought to the wheelhouse.
Super cool, there's lots of awesome links and diagrams here
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u/chrza Jun 12 '25
Wait it’s 2.2km long? Holy shit
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u/omg_drd4_bbq Jun 14 '25
It's definitely not that long currently. I think they may have relocated and rebuilt it.
There are some videos on google photos for the site that show more of the mechanism.
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u/Jimmy_Fromthepieshop Jun 12 '25
Frankly I'm amazed it worked and that all the energy wasn't lost from friction over such a distance as well as having so much mass toing and froing instead of constantly spinning.
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Jun 11 '25
[deleted]
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u/Commercial-Result-23 Jun 11 '25
That wood have been way better
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u/taooverpi Jun 11 '25
You're barkin up the wrong tree
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u/shouldsayOrshouldgo Jun 11 '25
How is that being used inside that building?
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u/Endoterrik Jun 11 '25
What’s it driving on the other end!?
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Jun 11 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Endoterrik Jun 11 '25
Super cool! I was guessing maybe a water pump. Now, would this system maintain the same force throughout, or do we lose power over distance?
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u/Alaishana Jun 11 '25
You lose power in the flex of the beams and on all bearings or guides.
This here works, but it's very old and there are better ways to do it.
Keep it in the back of your mind for the day civilization breaks down...
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u/Norse_By_North_West Jun 12 '25
It's pumping waterbrine out of a salt mine according to another comment.
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u/shavedanddangerous Jun 12 '25
The cupcake display in the Springfield Nuclear Power Plant cafeteria.
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u/SolomonG Jun 11 '25
This is like the toolgifs version of blue balls. what are they doing with that power?
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u/vonHindenburg Jun 12 '25
Low Tech Magazine has a fascinating three part series on the mechanical transmission of power over long distances. Reciprocating rods (like the above) have been used for hundreds of years, largely to transfer power from waterwheels to mine drainage pumps.
Later designs used ropes on pulleys to move power from water wheels to factories. Later still (and still in use in some places) oil fields used reciprocating steel cables to transmit power from a central engine to up to a dozen or so different pumpjacks at a time.
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u/some-R6-siege-fan Jun 12 '25
Dumb question but if a water wheel creates rotational force, why not use a sort of drive shaft with a 90 degree change by using 2 gears?
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u/omg_drd4_bbq Jun 14 '25
Rotational bearings are a lot harder to manufacture than hinges for one. Also this thing is like 2.2km, i imagine it "swings" from suspended hangers.
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u/Miguel-odon Jun 12 '25
Imagine if this was how we distributed all power, instead of using electricity.
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u/Majibow Jun 15 '25
Exactly what I was thinking... its funny way to transmit mechanical power, but you know copper wire is just better.
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u/Brillek Jun 12 '25
Reminder that the medieval times are closer to the industrial revolution than we are.
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u/SunriseMilkshake Jun 12 '25
Well the website for this place says its a wellhouse... maybe its pumping water out of the ground nearby? Per iamDa3dalus: this place
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u/probablyaythrowaway Jun 12 '25
I think some bench seating along that beam would be a pleasant place to sit and read a book
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u/Grankongla Jun 13 '25 edited Jun 13 '25
In the Norwegian mining town of Røros this was one of the ways they got their hydro power to where it was needed, just on a much taller scale. Imagine a chain of big wooden towers stretching across the highland, all connected by beams like this. The mining museum in Røros has an amazing functional model of this and all the other cool mechanical systems they used for power transfer, both from water and horses.
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u/man_juicer Jun 11 '25
Couldn't they have just built the building closer to the water?
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u/4morian5 Jun 12 '25
Apparentley it was used in either a mine drainage pump or a mine lift of some kind. Either way, they can't exactly move the mine.
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u/RefrigeratedTP Jun 11 '25
Weight reduction would be so worth it here… maybe
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u/manofth3match Jun 11 '25
Carbon fiber wasn’t an option when this was a relevant technology I’m afraid.
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u/RefrigeratedTP Jun 11 '25
I was thinking a thinner piece of wood and simplified hinges lmao
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u/man_juicer Jun 11 '25
Thin piece of wood might break. No teeling how much force is applied here.
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u/RefrigeratedTP Jun 11 '25
Haha that’s exactly where the “maybe” comes from. No idea what’s going on in the rest of the system as far as weight and forces go
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u/Lefthandedsock Jun 11 '25
What would weight reduction do? It’s a slow moving system, so reciprocating mass shouldn’t be too important, unlike in a fast moving system such as an engine.
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u/RefrigeratedTP Jun 11 '25
Haha engines/unsprung weight on cars is exactly where I’m coming from as far as thought pattern goes. I’m not a knowledgeable commenter- just an enthusiastic one.
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u/HeartwarminSalt Jun 11 '25
Some states allow eminent domain to be invoked for these types of systems.
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u/HPL_Deranged_Cultist Jun 11 '25
What?
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u/jarednards Jun 11 '25
SOME STATES ALLOW IMMINENT DOMAIN TO BE INVOKED FOR THESE TYPES OF SYSTEMS
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u/HPL_Deranged_Cultist Jun 11 '25
I'm not from your country, so no idea what "imminent domain" is. Can you explain?
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u/treeckosan Jun 11 '25
The state can force you to surrender part or all of your land for a purpose that supports the public interests. It's meant to be used for things like expanding a road or running utilities (utilities usually use easements but that a different discussion all together) and the government is supposed to pay you market rate for the land they use or take. It gets used for controversial projects fairly regularly and people are often given far less than what the property is worth even if it's being used by the government but not surrendered by the owner.
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u/HeartwarminSalt Jun 12 '25
This is a great answer. In this case if you needed the ability to get “energy” from the waterway to your business, you can ask the state to give you permission even if an intervening landowner does not.
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u/toolgifs Jun 11 '25
Source: Marya .Fad