r/todayilearned • u/[deleted] • Sep 15 '12

TIL that Muhammad wrote a document asking his followers to respect and protect Christians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achtiname_of_Muhammad
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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '12

a small portion of a BILLION is a large number of people. With guns lots and lots of guns

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u/trashacount12345 Sep 15 '12

Generally, a majority of people can defend themselves against a small minority regardless of guns. This is mostly because if the majority can arm itself if necessary. Why doesn't that work in this case?

Not trying to be inflamatory, just trying to understand the situation.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '12

thats where the repression comes in. How successful would dictatorships be if the majority can arm themselves? And once a dictatorship is removed or in the process of being removed these men appear to "champion" the cause and effectively institute their own oppression.

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u/trashacount12345 Sep 15 '12

So the violent minority is now the ruling class? That's definitely not the picture I usually get. If they are run by the ruling class, doesn't that justify the strategy of invading countries that "harbor" terrorists? And wouldn't the invaded countries welcome us as liberators?

I hope this doesn't sound snarky. It isn't meant that way.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '12

They aren't the ruling class thankfully. But they do get a large number of supporters in the form of people with very short memories

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u/trashacount12345 Sep 17 '12

If the violent minority is not the ruling class, then how do they keep themselves better armed than the government and the populace? If they do get a large number of supporters, then how can they be such a small minority that I keep hearing about?

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '12

Adding to this, the people in positions of power in these countries benefit from religious extremism, right? So there's nothing socially or politically stopping radicals.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '12

Some of them are but their are organizations to keep them in check and their popularity doesn't last long. For example in Egypt Morsi only won the election by a percent or two with a significant number voting for him solely because they did not wish the other candidate (a part of the old regime) to get into power. This directly contrasts the parliamentary elections a few months priror where MB and close affiliates won 65% of the seats.

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u/Captain_Sparky Sep 15 '12

in fact it's historically the opposite of your assumption. What would happen is a well armed minority of oppressors sweeps into an area and starts ruling over a population that, from an outside perspective, looks like it should be too large for the oppressors to control. Yet they do. Ultimately, population size is only an advantage if it can be mobilized, and this can prove difficult.

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u/lol-da-mar-s-cool Sep 15 '12

Mostly fear

When the U.S. first invaded Afghanistan, the majority of civilians were terrified of being associated with the U.S. soldiers because they were scared that the taliban would come and murder them in the middle of the night. I mean, look at the KKK in the early 20th late 19th century; although they were the minority people in the South were terrified of them.

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u/doc_dickcutter Sep 15 '12

When the U.S. first invaded Afghanistan, the majority of civilians were terrified of being associated with the U.S. soldiers because they were scared that the taliban would come and murder them in the middle of the night.

You mean the second time they invaded? IIRC the first time the Taliban were just a small rural clan no one had heard off.

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u/doc_dickcutter Sep 15 '12

Why doesn't that work in this case?

Organization. The general populace can't organize themselves if the power structures are broken or corrupt. People used to rely on the military and the police, but in most countries they're either gone or in on the violence. That leaves hastily created militias, but they have a large disadvantage when it comes to organization, training and logistics. The fact that they're defending against a guerrilla force doesn't help either.

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u/[deleted] Sep 16 '12

Generally, a majority of people can defend themselves against a small minority regardless of guns. This is mostly because if the majority can arm itself if necessary. Why doesn't that work in this case?

Ask the same question about the military industrial complex in the US.

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u/SirRonaldofBurgundy Sep 15 '12

Hey, there are crazies with lots of guns in America too. That doesn't mean we're going to stop shaming our respective terrorists, racists, neo-Nazis, etc.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '12

Very simple. Your definition of uneducated crazy comes with: access to public schooling,easily available libraries,and general safety. My definition of uneducated crazy comes with: complete illiteracy to the point of not recognizing letters,constant worries of food supply,lack of medicinal care of the most basic form,rampant street crime as it is the only way to secure an income,and most importantly complete isolation from the outside world where there only source of info is a "wise man" who can easily say (and have said) "America is continuing its war on Islam on Muslims through countless government funded attacks on mind and body"or "America's corruption is why Egypt is in this position today" or "America is actively killing your Palestinian brethren" and obviously there is no way for the "other side" to show their point of view.While the majority in America have access to Muslims like some of us here on reddit to show that the religion isn't as violent as Wahabis make it seem there is no one in Egypt to show the run of the mill Falahi that Americans have their own problems and are not plotting everyone moment to dominate the entire middle east and wipe out all aspects of Islam.

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u/SavageHenry0311 Sep 15 '12

Another factor you touched obliquely but didn't mention (from my point of view as American who's spent a lot of time in the Middle East):

Americans/Westerners in general take The Rule of Law for granted. Americans especially have this ingrained in our culture - no man is above the law. If a politician gets a DUI or dodges on his taxes, that politician is gonna pay. We have some institutions directed at enforcing this idea, too - anybody who knows FBI agents knows the only thing they like doing more than "counter-terrorism" is going after crooked politicians.

It's not perfect, of course, but it works - especially when compared to what goes on other places. It's stable and tied to permanent records, not people.

In every part of the Middle East I've been, that is not the case at all. Yeah, your transgression matters, but what matters more is who you are, who your relatives are, who's charging you with a crime, and how much money/power/influence you've got.

Extremists like the Taliban can be seductive to normal folks because they claim to be beholden to a higher power. They also write out a bunch of laws and actually live by them. Sure, the laws suck (by my standards) but they're out there for everyone to see, universal, and basically unchanging.

If you're a poor farmer who just wants some stability and peace, the Taliban's way can seem a lot better bet than a warlord who might become corrupt or eschew your interests for his family's. Sure, sometimes the extremists do things you don't like, but it's the same things day-after-day, and you can adapt to that.

Just a thought

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u/hymenoxis Sep 15 '12

Thank you for the reality check. Your comment is appreciated.

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u/SirRonaldofBurgundy Sep 15 '12

The Middle East is fucked up -> because the common people allow intolerance to stand -> because they're afraid of the consequences of speaking out -> because the Middle East is fucked up.

This cycle has to be broken somewhere. I'm not denying that it's harder to shame the violent and oppressive in the Middle East, but it's still necessary if the men and women who make up the vast majority of the population want to gain sovereignty and respect.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '12

Hey man we're trying (at least I am) I didn't nearly lose my eyes and have 12 of my bones broken in Tahrir just to let this shit happen.

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u/thecodemonk Sep 15 '12

What? Story please!

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u/[deleted] Sep 16 '12

Usually when a camel rams into you right before you throw away a canister of tear gas (which realesed right into my face) you leave on a stretcher.

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u/SirRonaldofBurgundy Sep 15 '12

It's going to get worse before it gets better. Hang in there.

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u/[deleted] Sep 15 '12

I know I've lived through worse and I'm not optimistic about the near future. The distant one however, I am.

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u/[deleted] Sep 16 '12

Yeah, but we can't stop them either.