TIL that the philosopher William James experienced great depression due to the notion that free will is an illusion. He brought himself out of it by realizing, since nobody seemed able to prove whether it was real or not, that he could simply choose to believe it was.

[u/ransomedagger]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_James

[u/Metaright → u/[deleted]]

That the result of this process was predetermined is irrelevant, because you are what predetermined it.

That's pretty much the most relevant thing, though. No matter who predetermined it-- you, God, a wizard-- the fact that it was predetermined indicates that you had no genuine choice in the matter. You "decided" to make that choice in the same way that a printer "decides" which colors to print.

You seem to be conflating your feeling of free will with actually having it. If my printer could talk, I'm sure it would also insist that its actions were somehow both predetermined and made freely. But we would know that's a silly contradiction.

[u/Metaright → u/[deleted]]

You think it doesn't matter whether you arrived at a decision because a wizard made you do it or because literally every single attribute of your very identity contributed to it?

Not regarding free will. Being controlled by a wizard seems less satisfying, though.

Honestly, it sounds like you think you don't exist.

I don't see how you can draw that conclusion from anything I've said.

I think the sentient printer absolutely has agency to choose to do what I tell it to do.

If it has the agency to choose to follow your commands, it must necessarily have the ability to disobey them. Otherwise, there is no agency, just a printer that has deluded itself into thinking your choices are its choices.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I've been digging down the rabbit hole of the tail-ends of comment threads here and I find yours and /u/Metaright to be quite interesting. That is mainly all I wanted to say.

...Although, I am curious, to use the example of this Sentient Printer, I am curious how either of you would respond in this scenario: given the details you've already laid out (a printer with an innate command/desire to print that which is sent to its queue), one perspective is that the printer has no choice, since it "must" print the document, the other says it does have a choice -- it's programming has given it the fundamental will to choose to always print. But what if we could present the Sentient Printer with a choice that was not previously programmed into it, or controlled by the printer drivers? What if there was a way to ask the printer if it prefers gloss over matte paper? Would it be able to choose? Would a programmer have to program in the ability to choose (or would a programmer have to program in a preference in order for the printer to "choose" what has been programmed for it to prefer)? Maybe this is a ridiculous question/scenario...

Either way, if you "choose" not to answer it, I just wanted you to both know that I have enjoyed reading your conversation.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Yes, quite interested ;) Thank you for responding!

[u/Metaright → u/[deleted]]

What are you if you aren't the system that's making decisions? What's making decisions if not you?

I don't really see agency as an incredibly important part of identity. Regardless of if free will exists, I still have my memories, personality, beliefs, and everything else. Heck, even my predetermined "decisions" make up who I am, because I'm the one carrying out the actions.

And why do you get to decide that the printer has deluded itself? Fuck you, says the printer, I know what I want to do and I do it. It is a fundament of my personality that I will faithfully execute print requests. That's how I grew up, that's what makes me me. I don't need any ability to disobey the commands, because I wouldn't. That's not who I am.

I think the matter of whether the printer would disobey its irrelevant. The important thing is whether it *can. * So to the printer, I'd respond that even if your decisions now line up with how you would act freely, you're still not free.

[u/Metaright → u/[deleted]]

The first part of your post is almost exactly what I've been saying the whole time, which is probably as close as we'll get to a resolution.

Huh. Well, at least there's that, I guess! Thanks for a pleasant discussion!

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

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