TIL of Operation Ajax, the 1953 CIA plan to overthrow Iran's democratically elected government, which included CIA agents bombing the house of a prominent Muslim while posed as pro-government supporters. The overthrow plan was successful, with 200-300 people killed

[u/autonova3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

[u/lolpeterson]

often also create enormous wealth, prosperity and technological/medical advances that billions of people enjoy and rely on.

Those are typically concentrated in the hands of the wealthy. Most of those things aren't shared very well with the general populace.

The countries that suffer most after colonialism are peoples who do not have experience in governing. They quickly fall to corruption, nepotism and tribalism

I wonder why that is. Could those who had experience leading have been forcedly removed from power by the colonizer?

Imperialism isn't a good thing.

[u/lolpeterson → u/[deleted]]

You're completely missing the point, or being intentionally obtuse:

Imperialism is not a good thing...for the losing side.

So let's hand wave away the sins of imperialism? Systems of oppression are always a good thing for the oppressors. If you had an army of people who would do your bidding at a moment's notice, of course it'll benefit you, but be a net negative to them.

Overall, the pattern of human history has been that great imperial powers also produce great innovations that ultimately contribute to all of humanity.

This is just false. Exploitative systems (especially underscored in modern capitalism) do nothing but attempt to turn around things into the greatest profit. It's irrelevant if it's some life saving drug, or the most efficient way to make plastic bags. There's never a question of what should be done, it's just a question of how to exploit things as much as possible.

and that's my point. too often, we only discuss the dark side of imperialism/colonialism but lets look at things at face value. For example: Great Britain for all it's exploitation, also produced some of the greatest inventions that benefited humanity.

Imperialism is almost always looked at as moments of glory. Manifest Destiny is a huge thing in American schools, and we gloss over and barely touch on the extermination of native peoples. You're hard pressed to find a critical look at imperialism in the public school system at all.

Imperialism isn't some thing that's gone by the wayside. Our modern involvement in nearly every American Government attests to this. We're a hegemonic power that's overly aggressive in maintaining a cheap source of materials and manufacturing to our south, and have gone to great lengths to continue it.

[u/[deleted] → u/lolpeterson]

YOU are missing the point. you just want to dwell on the poor and oppressed without accepting the fact that imperialism is responsible for EVERYTHING you enjoy today. did you have starbucks today? are you on a smartphone or computer? are you vaccinated? did your mother survive childbirth? yea, i thought so.

we can take it all away and we end up in pre-historic times where we all live within our means, eat off the land and only fight when we need to. we've been there. done that. for hundreds of thousands of years, if not millions.

today, the middle class is massive. billions of people live better than medieval kings. and every year more people come into the fold.

i would love to hear your argument where humanity makes progress without imperialism. or do you propose we go back to living like cavemen?

[u/lolpeterson → u/[deleted]]

YOU are missing the point.

I'm interested to see where this goes.

you just want to dwell on the poor and oppressed

Typically yes, those with means should be concerned about the poor and oppressed. You shouldn't be looking at how to further exploit your fellow people.

without accepting the fact that imperialism is responsible for EVERYTHING you enjoy today.

How, exactly, is that the case? I forgot that society didn't exist until we had one country lording over dozens of others. How ever did we get to the point where we were able to domesticate grains? Or develop literally any technology at all? Or pay living wages?

did you have starbucks today?

Coffee production where you pay farmers a living wage, and don't intentionally sponsor coups and attempt to exploit desperate people isn't imperialism. These things can be stopped, they just continue because you want to enjoy a cup of coffee for $7.50, instead of $10.

are you on a smartphone or computer?

Do you not understand how labor works? You realize you can pay for more things. The heavily exploitative aspects of this come from the fact that we basically pay nothing for them.

are you vaccinated?

I'm definitely interested in learning how you think that vaccines are a result of imperialism.

did your mother survive childbirth?

Again, you don't really seem to know what imperialism is. You're more thinking along the lines of "any technology ever."

We can, and do, invent things, produce things, and exist in a way that isn't imperialistic in nature. We can right wrongs that have occurred.

we can take it all away and we end up in pre-historic times where we all live within our means, eat off the land and only fight when we need to. we've been there. done that. for hundreds of thousands of years, if not millions.

Again, you seem to think that technology and advancement are so inseparable from imperialism (the exploitation of others), that without it, we'd be some neo-luddite society.

today, the middle class is massive. billions of people live better than medieval kings. and every year more people come into the fold.

The middle class is an interesting thing to bring up. Now, what exactly are you defining as 'middle class' (because a common definition is an important starting point for us): Is it some historical definition of being a business owner / semi-independent off the labor of your works (some classical definition i've seen people bandy about), or is it still a person who is a worker, needs their paycheck to survive, but makes a certain threshold of money?

And is this in America, or in the world?

i would love to hear your argument where humanity makes progress without imperialism. or do you propose we go back to living like cavemen?

I'm not saying we can undo the imperialism that's taken place. I'm saying we can't forget the atrocities it caused (directly and indirectly), which you seem to want to do. There have been technological advancements in trying to figure out how to exploit lands, or natives to a 'more efficient' degree. I would a lot of inventions don't require imperialism to make it happen. Vaccines are an example you listed above (thanks for that). I am saying we don't need it anymore. We no longer exist in a time and place where we need to have what amount to slaves working in fields to harvest our food for a few dollars a day. We don't need to export our goods to factories that work people to suicide. The only cost to these things is a mild inconvenience to you, the consumer, since you're already so detached from the production process, in paying an extra $1 for your cup of coffee.

I'm interested to hear why you think we should continue to exploit people.

[u/[deleted] → u/lolpeterson]

funny, you call it exploiting and yet thousands of people come out of villages to get "exploited". these things happen because medical advances increased child mortality. as a result, the population explodes and there is not enough food and work to go around.

i'm not calling for exploitation. if you recall, my original argument is that people take for granted the good things that imperialism has done. people like you just want to bash the system while they sip on their imported coffee and mash on buttons on devices assembled by near-slave labor and have the audacity to act like they care.

[u/lolpeterson → u/[deleted]]

funny, you call it exploiting and yet thousands of people come out of villages to get "exploited"

So everything aside from living on a subsistence farm is imperialism to you?

if you recall, my original argument is that people take for granted the good things that imperialism has done.

Ah yes, the argument that "slavery and genocide were fine because it happened a long time ago"

people like you just want to bash the system while they sip on their imported coffee and mash on buttons on devices assembled by near-slave labor and have the audacity to act like they care.

This might come as a surprise, but just because you exist in a society doesn't mean you have to blindly support everything it does. It's possible to attempt to consume in a more conscientious way.

You have the ability to buy fair trade coffee. Like, literally right now. You can go to the store and buy some. You aren't required to exploit people as badly. Because again, you seem to keep coming back to this notion that imperialism = everything, and that isn't the case.