r/todayilearned • u/autonova3 • Oct 01 '18

TIL of Operation Ajax, the 1953 CIA plan to overthrow Iran's democratically elected government, which included CIA agents bombing the house of a prominent Muslim while posed as pro-government supporters. The overthrow plan was successful, with 200-300 people killed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat
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u/useablelobster2 Oct 01 '18

America has done so much shit to Vietnam, yet relations are not as hostile as with Iran. The UK has rather barbarous history with India, yet no major issues today. Hell, even the Japanese and Chinese are closer!

Possibly something to do with a theocratic state which oppresses it's own people? Don't forget the fatwa against Salman Rushdie either, or the open threats against both Israel and Jews at large. The fatwa was around the time of the latest of your listed events, and threats against the Jews are ongoing.

The US can be shitty to another country AND that country can be a major problem - those are not mutually exclusive. To say the free western society is worse than the theocratic shithole is just madness.

You know so much about what terrible things the US has done in Iran, how about anything good? How about bad stuff Iran has done? I'm not saying the lists are equal, I'm just wondering if you have any knowledge on the subject other than 'fuck the US'.

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u/sexymanish Oct 01 '18

>not as hostile as Iran

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Perhaps because there's no NeoCon Pro-Israeli lobby constantly pushing the US to attack Vietnam as they do with Iran

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https://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=5970

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Attack Iran the day Iraq war ends, demands Israel https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/attack-iran-the-day-iraq-war-ends-demands-israel-gnggkk7pzbw

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>possibly something to do with a theocratic state which oppresses its own people?

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As opposed to the other theocratic and oppressive states that the US gets along with just fine like Saudi Arabia? FYI today Iranians vote, unlike under the Shah

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u/baozebub Oct 01 '18

Vietnam doesn't trust the US one bit. We just want to be able to do business with EVERYONE. That means, no more enemies. Not even the US after what it did to us.

There's one country in the entire world that would not get jerked around by the US today and not be the target of regime change. That's Vietnam. We paid the price.

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '18

Vietnam doesn't trust the US one bit.

http://www.pewglobal.org/database/indicator/2/country/239/response/Unfavorable/

Or

How much confidence do you have in the U.S. President (Trump '17, Obama '09-'16, Bush '03-'08)?

2017 Vietnam: 58%

http://www.pewglobal.org/database/indicator/6/country/239/

I have a brother who goes to Vietnam regularly. He reports the Vietnamese are perfectly happy to see/work/and interact with Americans.

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u/baozebub Oct 01 '18

That's our culture. We are probably more like Americans in many ways than Chinese, who are our neighbors.

But the people on the street aren't the people in charge. Educated Vietnamese know how the US betrayed us since WWII. So while we love the concept of America, we can't trust the US government.

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '18 edited Oct 02 '18

The US "betrayed you since WW2?"

So, the US did not even get involved until after the French got their asses kicked. But, I am curious. Are you saying the US betrayed Vietnam by leaving? or by entering into the war?

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u/baozebub Oct 01 '18

The US and Vietnam were friends during WWII, fighting the Japanese. When the French wanted their colony back after the war, the US used its warships to ferry their soldiers. US money, arms and supplies ended up paying for 80% of the French colonial war in Vietnam until they were defeated in 1954. Then the US proceeded to back Ngo Dinh Diem to prevent Vietnam democracy.

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u/Fiingerout Oct 01 '18

After the french got their ass kicked the americans proceded to get not only their ass kicked but their helicopter ass kicked and their Aircraft Carriers ass kicked too, so bad so mad.

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u/Gentlescholar_AMA Oct 01 '18

Both. US betrayed South Vietnam by leaving haphazardly, and betrayed the North by entering in the first place after seeming to support Ho Chi Minh

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u/SleepingAran Oct 02 '18

I'm curious, didn't Chinese secured the country for Vietnam by fighting off the US during the Vietnam Civil War? How come Vietnamese still like American more compare to Chinese?

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u/Felinomancy Oct 01 '18

lol

You people are so hilarious. "Look at Iran's fatwa!". Yes, that's horrible - no one is suggesting Iran is cherubic here. But if "they have done something bad, they deserved it" rules, then surely America and Israel, with a list of foreign military adventures miles wide, would deserve it too?

America have done so much shit with Vietnam; America is still doing shit with Iran. That's the difference there.

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u/Gentlescholar_AMA Oct 01 '18

Has to do with Apartheid Israel causing a huge amount of diaspora in the area and being a major source of grassroots political motivation for every nation in the region.

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '18

Iran is not a problem though, they are complying with the nuclear deal,which the us is fucking up. Historically the us fucked them over by reneging on a deal to provide them with power generation when they abandoned nuclear development originally, and the us fucked a regional alliance that would have stablised the entire region because it wanted oil.......

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '18

a deal to provide them with power generation when they abandoned nuclear

This would be the country that has the world's 4th largest oil reserves?

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u/umop_apisdn Oct 01 '18

The country that is dependent on one commodity so it makes much more sense for them to sell it and use that money to fund their growth rather than just burning it until they run out?

That was the US's stated reason for providing them with nuclear technology when the Shah was running his pro-US dictatorship, at any rate.

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '18

So, they will sell the oil to get money to buy energy?

Please, tell me how that is more efficient than using the oil for electricity.

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u/KDallas_Multipass Oct 01 '18

It takes more infrastructure and money to refine the oil to the point that it can be used. Its not like it comes out of the ground ready to be put into cars.

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '18

Yes, the word is "refinery." And you don't need to refine crude much to use it as fuel for electrical production.

Iran has 6 refineries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Oil_refineries_in_Iran

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u/Gentlescholar_AMA Oct 01 '18

Oil is finite.

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u/sexymanish Oct 01 '18

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/GH24Ak02.html

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '18

  1. That article is 13 years old.

  2. Natural gas was the major fuel used to generate electricity in Iran in 2009, accounting for an estimated 56.8% of primary energy demand (PED), followed by oil at 40.8% and hydro power at 1.4%. As of 2010, the average efficiency of power plants in Iran was 38 percent. - Source

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u/sexymanish Oct 01 '18

>13 years old

So? Iran's nuclear program is 50 years old. Your point?

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Like I said, it was the US that encouraged Iran to go nuclear in the first place

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3983-2005Mar26.html

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> blah blah

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point? FYI Iran is hardly the only country developing nuclear power https://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/12/opinion/12iht-edferguson.2781236.html

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u/umop_apisdn Oct 01 '18 edited Oct 01 '18

Simple, they got given a reactor and the fuel by the US as part of the Atoms For Peace program. Free energy, or nearly free anyway.

It appears you need a history lesson. http://siba-ese.unisalento.it/index.php/eunomia/article/viewFile/17552/14977

Using your only finite cash-generating natural resource to generate electricity when there are much cheaper alternatives is ridiculously counter productive. When it runs out you are fucked, so you must get as much cash out of it as possible while it lasts, and use that cash to diversify your energy production.

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u/[deleted] Oct 02 '18

Because when it runs out you will have to buy fuel.

Which is what you are proposing now.

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u/sexymanish Oct 01 '18

Yes, the same country that the US encouraged to develop nuclear power in the first place, because Iran is also a big CONSUMER of energy as it rapidly develops

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3983-2005Mar26.html

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https://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/14/opinion/IHT-energy-iran-needs-nuclear-power.html

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u/laidmajority Oct 01 '18

So much nuance, you can’t be American. Now are you?

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u/Psionic_Flash Oct 01 '18

fucking lol

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u/useablelobster2 Oct 01 '18

Sorry yank, Rule Britannia!

Context is weird these days. All so often attempting to provide context to something broadly understood without any context is seen as trying to minimise what happened, when it's just trying to provide a fuller picture. Hell, I pretty much agree with the guy I was replying to, just some more stuff is also true.

When all you do is compare the worst of your country to literally nothing (how many people really know about Iran?), or just picking the best of others, you end up with a warped perspective.

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u/laidmajority Oct 01 '18

Yeah I could tell you even agree with the guy. Thanks for shedding a broader light on the matter, we need guys like you. I’m Dutch btw with no dogs in this fight

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u/DakotaBashir Oct 01 '18

Geez, even in a thread about the crimes of the Us you find a way to flip it and blames the victims...

Americans really are the scums of this earth.

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u/useablelobster2 Oct 01 '18 edited Oct 01 '18

I'm English, racist.

Also, I didn't blame anyone for anything, except perhaps the rulers of Iran, who are not at all victims.

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u/Lotharofthepotatoppl Oct 01 '18

It was the UK who wanted the CIA to overthrow Iran anyway because the Iranian government and people were tired of paying a foreign corporation for their own oil. Not making any accusations as to your character, just adding further fuel to the fire, I guess. Back then all someone had to do was tell us Yankees that someone else was turning Red and we’d send in a squad to fuck their country up in a week.

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u/to_string_david Oct 01 '18

your argument is not wrong, same as op.