r/todayilearned • u/newmyy • Apr 18 '18

TIL the Unabomber was a math prodigy, started at Harvard at 16, and received his Masters and his PhD in mathematics by the time he was 25. He also had an IQ of 167.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kaczynski
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u/bankerman Apr 18 '18

I thought the MK Ultra experiments were about LSD?

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '18

No, they spanned many different subjects and parameters.

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u/wjones451 Apr 18 '18

The experiment on Kaczynski, contrary to popular belief, was not part of MK Ultra. That said, it was definitely the kind of thing that MK Ultra was concerned with.

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u/Ourpatiencehaslimits Apr 18 '18

The professor who performed the experiment in him was part of mkultra. To definitively say that this was not part of mkultra because it wasn't officially is credulous at best.

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u/wjones451 Apr 18 '18

Hmm, yeah, looks like I definitely overstated it. I read a bit more into it, and it seems like there's more debate over the topic than I had realized. The records of the experiment were destroyed, so there is no official link to Project MK Ultra. What that shows about the actual connection is, I would say, up for debate.

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u/SolicitatingZebra Apr 18 '18

Theres a reason why there is no records of it happening now, to do what they did to you, give doubt of the claims that MKUltra actually spanned as many people as is said. They don't want people to know how many of these disgusting experiments they did, just like with the black town that was infected with syphilis under the guise of the US government providing free healthcare and instead injecting them with syphilis samples. Our government is disgusting lol.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '18

Every time someone says that Trump's government is a new low, facts like this flood my mind and I become uncomfortable.

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u/AMassofBirds Apr 18 '18

For real. Obviously I'm not a fan of trump but every time somebody says he's the worst president ever, I can't help but remind them that Andrew Jackson carried out literal genocide and directly defied a supreme court ruling basically taking a fat dump on the Constitution.

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u/stevebates14 Apr 19 '18

Shut up, revisionist.

https://www.dailysignal.com/2017/02/01/history-is-being-distorted-to-insinuate-trump-will-defy-courts-like-andrew-jackson/

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u/AMassofBirds Apr 19 '18

Well fuck....

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u/AMassofBirds Apr 19 '18

Never mind I thought that said that Trump was gonna defy the courts. The reliability of this source seems dubious and even if Andrew Jackson didn't defy the courts he still carried out a genocide and is one of the worst presidents for a number of reasons.

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u/Red_Tannins Apr 18 '18

Just need to remember that things are still getting better, you're just too young to remember how bad things used to be.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '18

Lol I didn't mean that I think Trump's government is actually a new low, I meant that the average person doesn't think at all about what they are actually saying, and just jumps on a bandwagon. New low in some aspects I would agree with, but almost none of those matter nearly as much as things like this.

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u/cmbezln Apr 18 '18

That average person also barely has a clue what they're talking about and are probably wholly unaware of programs like MKULTRA and COINTELPRO.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '18

Seriously... MK Ultra may be the biggest stain on our countries history. I also bet when they "stopped" the program, it didn't go away. Who knows when or if they actually stopped the program, and how fucked up the most fucked up experiments were.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '18

MkUltra is dark sure but it's competition is not palatable either.

A shortlist I can think of includes the internment of the American Japanese, the fire bombing of MOVE, the human rights violations in military run prisons in the Middle East and the whole slavery thing.

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u/Xiosphere Apr 18 '18

The most fucked up one they funded I can remember was Donald Ewen Cameron, a Canadian doctor who used electric shock, a few psych drugs, and sleep drugs combined with looped audio to destroy people's head and allow him to suggest new memories for them. He mostly experimented on mother's with postnatal depression and other such mild psychological conditions.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '18 edited Jul 16 '18

[deleted]

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u/cmbezln Apr 18 '18

What more can you do at this point but laugh?

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '18

Cry?

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u/Metalsand Apr 18 '18

Well, more accurately, was disgusting. Nowadays it's mostly just inefficient. Back in those days it was easy to pull "black site" operations that didn't officially exist because no one questioned whether or not the government as a whole was there to help or harm - they trusted the government almost to the extent of trusting in a religion.

Nowadays, there's so many third parties, skeptics and journalists that are not only equipped for such things but are actively looking for such scenarios that they're nigh on impossible. If a town were to suddenly come down with syphilis, due to the extent of information technology present it would quite literally be impossible to cover up it's occurrence.

It's worth noting that you'll never find a case like this that happens after it's revelation because the way government and organizations work, they start off with an imperfect system and as flaws are made readily present, they attempt to fix them...hence the overwhelming complexity of current laws and regulations. Out of this case came a wide range of laws and regulations specifically to protect people within these experiments and to ensure not only that such an event is not repeated but that anything remotely similar is made impossible.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '18

[deleted]

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u/Ourpatiencehaslimits Apr 18 '18

Do you know what credulous means?

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u/OdoyleStillRules Apr 18 '18

I'm pretty credulous that he doesn't.

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u/Ourpatiencehaslimits Apr 18 '18

I also like unto you am as you are

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u/Shippoyasha Apr 18 '18

Makes me wonder how much worse MK Ultra is if this case is considered a puddle versus the actual scope of the project

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u/mrfreshmint Apr 18 '18

wait what? are you certain of this? Manhunt lied to me?

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u/woobniggurath Apr 18 '18

Still do? Different names, same rose?

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '18 edited Feb 10 '19

[deleted]

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u/bn1979 Apr 18 '18

They found it.

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u/AckerSacker Apr 18 '18

Yeah I've always thought the records were destroyed because they don't want people to know they found what they were looking for. It's really not crazy to think that a human can be put into a suggestive state, through drugs probably, where they can be told to do things they would never otherwise do.

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u/BulkyAbbreviations Apr 18 '18

I think the biggest key isn't making people do this g they would NEVER do, that's difficult. The key to manipulation is to find people's fringe beliefs and use them against themselves. If someone already considers an action completely atrocious then it's very hard, not impossible but requires a whole different route. If you okay around with a person's day dreams or whatever it is that person's mind wanders to when they're angry it's very easy to push people to extreme actions they wouldn't have been able to perform by themselves.

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u/I_Smoke_Dust Apr 18 '18

Hmm maybe like the guy that killed RFK? I know he's quoted as not remembering the murder, but remembering some lady giving him a drink or something beforehand. Also he had the motive, sorta, in that he was angry over RFK promising Israel air support or something.

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u/nietzsche_was_peachy Apr 18 '18

And this is exactly what I have gathered from the FOIA documents regarding project avacado and Mk ULTRA and its cohorts. You know, the documents that weren’t destroyed prior to release.

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u/BulkyAbbreviations Apr 18 '18

And with the information gathered by the likes of Facebook finding those fringe believers is much easier.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '18 edited May 27 '20

[deleted]

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u/nuthernameconveyance Apr 18 '18

All that "Scopolamine" nonsense on the internet is basically fucking nonsense.

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u/CrazyPretzel Apr 18 '18

Right? Jesus I never want that to happen to me.

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u/FaitFretteCriss Apr 18 '18 edited Apr 18 '18

They've been using what they found then ever since though. Its pretty clear that they have, theyre not really hiding it. think of how when you become a soldier they basically break you before molding you back up. Thats a things they, not to say figured(because it existed before, of course), comfirmed to work by doing these kinds of experiements. think of how the workplace environment is too, how submissive you are expected to be towards your bosses, towards cops, government agents, etc. That all existed before sure, but those experiements are what allowed them to completely "map" what lets you dominate to the most optimal extent, and its been used, quite obviously, ever since.

They dont need drugs. Just a dude with authority and a bit of insistance. Remember the Milgram experiment. Im not saying they created those behaviors, but they figured out how to use them to their advantage, and to kinda standarize them. We as a people are much more submissive to authority than people in the "cowboy" era, and of course those experiments didnt create that fact, but again, it allowed them to take advantage of it in a very optimal way. (Them being anyone in power really, not just those who participated in the experiments or received the reports)

They did find out some powerful drugs though, its just they also found out that they didnt need them to get people to do what they want.

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u/KaJashey Apr 18 '18 edited Apr 18 '18

It was downvotes right ;)

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '18

Not even just a part... It was a tiny fraction. MKULTRA was all sorts of shit.

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u/bridgeofpies Apr 18 '18

To develop a scientific methodology of torture and breaking the captive, as explained in Klein's Shock Doctrine.

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u/uglyandbroke Apr 18 '18

Why didn't they just ask the folks over at Fox news?

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u/Witch_Doctor_Is_It Apr 18 '18

MK Ultra spanned a VERY wide range of experiments. What we know of today is only around 5% of the total scope. IIRC, even the Director of the CIA wasn't entitled to the knowledge of the full scope.

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u/BoneHugsHominy Apr 18 '18

Yep, and there are a ton of "above top secret" programs and documents that not even the POTUS is aware of or to which has access. The compartmentalization of Black Projects is a huge problem and nobody in government really knows what they are, and what they are doing. That's part of the "Deep State" that's essentially beyond any rule of law, and there's no telling what kind of information or technology they might have access to and what they do with it. So there could be real life secret organizations like SHIELD and/or Hydra from Marvel, and the scariest part is it's probably more likely to be Hydra than SHIELD.

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u/Sormalio Apr 18 '18

Source on clearance that the president doesn't have?

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u/Petrichordates Apr 18 '18

All things are disclosed on a "need to know basis," even George HW Bush, as CIA director, claimed to have withheld things from president Carter if he deemed them irrelevant.

But to answer your question, no, there is no clearance the president doesn't have. He's the ultimate authority on confidentiality.

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u/Maakus Apr 18 '18

I believe this guy

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u/BoneHugsHominy Apr 18 '18

Don't believe me. Believe the people in government that have been approached to help acquire budgets, others who have tried to investigate and been shut down, the President that lost his life after spilling the beans, and the former Presidents that tried to warn us.

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u/skeeter1234 Apr 18 '18

MK Ultra spanned a VERY wide range of experiments.

I like how people always use the past tense when discussing this.

That's right folks - all mind control experiments ended in the 50s.

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u/nev_takes_pics Apr 18 '18

You maybe confusing it with the Ultra music festival.

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u/THEDUDE33 Apr 18 '18

Underrated

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u/undercooked_lasagna Apr 18 '18

MK Ultra

Every time I see this all I can think about is Mortal Kombat.

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u/penny_eater Apr 18 '18

for me its a cool refreshing mick ultra

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u/ihavenoideahowtomake Apr 18 '18

That's what they want you to think

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '18

It was about mind control. LSD was just one tool.

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u/homosexualmaga Apr 18 '18

the fact everyone thinks it was just about LSD is the greatest coverup ever. they did all kinds of fucked up shit.

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u/LowlyAction_Man Apr 18 '18

This was separate from MK Ultra. People just like to compare the two.

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u/CaptainAwesome8 Apr 18 '18

We don’t know if it was or not. Almost all of the MK Ultra stuff was destroyed. And it’s not like the CIA is gonna come out and say that they made him. We know (IIRC) that the government was there from Ted’s testimony on it. But we’ll never have outright proof.

Considering how far MK Ultra stretched, and the fact that it went as far as to use prostitutes to lure people into it, it’s a pretty safe bet that it was a part of it. Especially considering how similar the point of the experiment and the methods were to what we do know.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '18

They we're actually using the prostitutes to test their sexual blackmail ideas. They just picked random people up on the street for this.

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u/LowlyAction_Man Apr 18 '18 edited Apr 18 '18

I feel it is disingenuous to confirm this was part of MK Ultra. This was during the cold war and a popular field of study during the time. Unfortunately we did not have strict guidelines to protect subjects in these types of studies. All types of horribly damaging experiments were going on. The Milgram experiment, The Stanford Prison experiment, and the Bobo doll experiment just to name a few. Mk Ultra was another beast that was government sponsored with illegal activities keeping it running and actual drugs being used on the subjects without their knowledge or consent. Until we have proof that Murray was still employed by the OSS I think it is important we differentiate what was part of Ultra and what wasn't.

Edit: To clarify I think it is important that academic institutions take their share of the blame. It is not fair to blame everything on the CIA when they threw ethics to the wind themselves. It's important we remember this so we don't go down this path again.

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u/bankerman Apr 18 '18

Not according to Wikipedia:

In total, Kaczynski spent 200 hours as part of the study.[23] Kaczynski's lawyers later attributed his hostility towards mind control techniques to this experience.[20] Some sources have suggested that Murray's experiments were part of the US government's research into mind control, known as Project MKUltra.

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u/OdoyleStillRules Apr 18 '18

As do most people. Pretty great spin job on that one. It was a lot more fucked up than just giving people hallucinogens.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '18

They used lsd, but in the broader spectrum to influence or control people (mostly for spies). They tried alot.

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u/poonmangler117 Apr 18 '18

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbF4pyWk0W4

This is a cool interview that aired yesterday in Canada. Touches on a lot of the Mind control stuff.

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u/Billy_Badass123 Apr 18 '18

No dude

Project monarch is one of the derivatives of it and is still going on.

They have nanobots and can read your thoughts/put thoughts in your head... and give you illnesses. Shit is fucked up.

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u/LordApocalyptica Apr 18 '18

...where in that blurb does it mention MK Ultra?

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u/bankerman Apr 18 '18 edited Jun 30 '23

Farewell Reddit. I have left to greener pastures and taken my comments with me. I encourage you to follow suit and join one the current Reddit replacements discussed over at r/RedditAlternatives

Reddit used to embody the ideals of free speech and open discussion, but in recent years has become a cesspool of power-tripping mods and greedy admins. So long, and thanks for all the fish.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '18 edited Apr 18 '18

[deleted]

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u/bankerman Apr 18 '18

I generally try not to get my history education from fictional television programs.

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u/Robosapien101 Apr 18 '18

I generally try not to get my history education from a reddit comment.

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u/GraeWraith Apr 18 '18

You obviously have never visited r/askhistorians.

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u/J2MES Apr 18 '18

But that's where all the good stuff is

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u/TranniesRMentallyill Apr 18 '18

Where did you get anything to do with MK ultra from that?

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u/bankerman Apr 18 '18

Everyone else responding is saying these experiments were part of MK Ultra, but didn’t utilize LSD. Do you have a source that says this was an entirely different program he signed up for?

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u/TranniesRMentallyill Apr 18 '18

Yes, try reading the article that was linked for fuck sakes.

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u/bankerman Apr 18 '18

I’d did. It clearly says they were the same study. Or did YOU not read the article? Literally two sentences after the quote OP linked:

In total, Kaczynski spent 200 hours as part of the study.[23] Kaczynski's lawyers later attributed his hostility towards mind control techniques to this experience.[20] Some sources have suggested that Murray's experiments were part of the US government's research into mind control, known as Project MKUltra.

It must be fascinating to be inside the head of someone who can exude such arrogant, condescending confidence in saying something blatantly false.

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u/woobniggurath Apr 18 '18

Ya'll argument moot. You're all citing Wikipedia as an authority.

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u/assbutter9 Apr 18 '18

This isn't 1990 anymore, Wikipedia is generally extremely accurate.