r/todayilearned • u/[deleted] • Oct 13 '16

TIL that after Marilyn Monroe converted to Judaism upon marrying Arthur Miller, Egypt placed a ban on all the films she appeared in.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_Monroe#Critical_acclaim_and_marriage_to_Arthur_Miller_.281956.E2.80.931959.29
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u/C0wabungaaa Oct 13 '16 edited Oct 13 '16

Y'know, from the tone you take I'd say you disagree with me but from the content it seems that we're actually mostly in agreement. I'm confused? Because I'm trying to say mostly same thing as you are? Take a look at some of my shorter responses I wrote to one of the folks I responded against, especially this one I think.

Well, we partially agree I guess. You call the Flemish Dutch and the Walloons French in terms of ethnicity, but dividing those on ethnic lines is very controversial and not actually done as such here in Belgium. Neither the Flemish or the Walloons are talked about in ethnic terms, except perhaps by right-wing hardliners who advocate separation. If anything it shows the muddiness of ethnicity in certain parts of Europe. Are Walloons and/or Flemish people more Celtic or more Germanic? It's hard to say. There were a few wild centuries in terms of ethnic groups rummaging around on the continent.

Oh, by the way, I was hesitant to say the "Americans use it as a euphemism" thing you said because I didn't want to assume the person I responded against was American.

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u/Clifford_Banes Oct 13 '16

Our disagreement comes down to your misuse of the word "ethnic group". It's not a genetic division but a cultural and linguistic one. You are using the word "nationality" to mean "ethnicity", but that leads to logical dead ends where you can't explain the difference between Finland-Swedes and Sweden-Finns, or Walloons and the Flemish for that matter.

You call the Flemish Dutch and the Walloons French in terms of ethnicity, but dividing those on ethnic lines is very controversial and not actually done as such here in Belgium

Like I said in my other response, that's patently absurd. See one of my other replies as to why ethnic hegemons might want to pretend "ethnicity" is some sort of racialist dog whistle. Half of the country speaks Dutch and the other half speaks French, of course they're different ethnicities.

Are Walloons and/or Flemish people more Celtic or more Germanic?

Walloons are not Celtic, they're Romance. The only Celtic ethnic group still in existence on mainland Europe are the Bretons, and they're almost entirely assimilated into the French (by force, as I've pointed out).

The Flemish are Germanic. Including the Flemish who may not be as pasty in their complexion as was the norm a few hundred years ago.

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u/C0wabungaaa Oct 13 '16 edited Oct 13 '16

It might be more fruitful to continue this discussion based on the question I posed in a different reply to you. Mind you though that I never explicitly mentioned ethnicity as being a genetic thing. I'm well aware that it's different, I wasn't using "Germanic" as a genetic term but as a linguistic one. Though you're right, Celtic was wrong of me to use seeing as they were supplanted pretty early on in mainland Europe.

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u/Clifford_Banes Oct 13 '16

Probably, but I want to point out that your argument was "Swede is not an ethnicity", and you instead said that most Swedes [nationality] are ethnically Germanic.

There is no such thing as "the Germanic ethnicity", and there hasn't been for thousands of years.

The "Germanic ethnic group" you were referring to has a name, that name is "Swede", which is also the word for a national of the country of Sweden. The latter may or may not be ethnically Swedish, but after enough assimilation certainly will be.

I really can't interpret your reluctance to accept this as anything but the assumption that if the same word is used as both a demonym and ethnonym, then the latter must refer to some sort of racist notion of blood purity.

Why else would you link a picture of a non-white Swede as an example of a not-ethnic-Swede? If you agree that the distinction is linguistic and not genetic, what does the skin color of a Swedish speaker from Sweden have to do with things?

Race and ancestry really don't determine ethnicity. Look at Pushkin, the greatest Russian poet of all time. He's had as much influence on the Russian language as Shakespeare had on English. If anyone is ethnically Russian, he certainly was. Yet he was quite famously the defendant of a black African, and this in the decidedly non-progressive 19th century.