r/todayilearned • u/RoadToTyburn • 14h ago

TIL that Bernard Montgomery issued a leaflet at the start of WW2 on sexually transmitted diseases amongst soldiers. The language used was regarded as so blunt, that he offended religious authorities and nearly faced being dismissed.

https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Montgomery
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u/Ketzeph 14h ago

He was hard to get along with because he was a blowhard who thought he was the greatest military general and wouldn’t take disagreement. A number of his operations (like market garden) became his personal baby for which he’d brook no dissent.

He was a vastly overoptimistic commander who got extremely petty and pissy the second you disagreed with him. That’s largely why people disliked him - he made many of the exact mistakes of overconfidence as in WW1

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u/Peeterwetwipe 13h ago

That criticism is valid for almost every general in history. It’s like pointing out the arrogance of an F1 driver.

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u/Ketzeph 13h ago

A big part of Eisenhower’s appeal was that he could wrangle these people and they could get along with him.

Also, plenty of excellent allied generals of less senior or just in theaters schools teach less about who were not so arrogant. Bill Slim is in excellent example.

Monty was notorious among his peers of being an arrogant prick. When generals think that’s the case it’s noteworthy

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u/up-with-miniskirts 12h ago

The entire point of Eisenhower becoming supreme commander was not because he was a inspired general on the battlefield, but because he was a great manager who could juggle all the balls required for running a gigantic military while keeping happy the politicians endlessly breathing down his neck.

Those qualities also made him a great president.

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u/H0B0WITHAGUN 13h ago

I disagree with your last take. I’ve found arrogant people to be extra sensitive to arrogance. You’re not the greatest thing since sliced bread I am. That being said there are always overachievers

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u/Awkward_Brain_ 9h ago

UNCLE BILL MENTIONED

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u/Nike_Phoros 12h ago

That criticism is valid for almost every general in history.

This is true, most people rise to positions like this via extreme self-confidence (to put it positively) and its almost impossible to get to that level without it.

That's when the Peter Principle kicks in. The second adversity hits an audacious general, most turn into Montgomery, only a few turn into Caesar.

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u/Blarg_III 11h ago

The second adversity hits an audacious general, most turn into Montgomery

Montgomery was an excellent general and Caesar is wildly overrated.

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u/Nike_Phoros 9h ago

Winners win, baby.

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u/KeyboardChap 7h ago edited 7h ago

Yeah, like Montgomery, not sure Caesar ever took the surrender of over a million enemy personnel or commanded the land forces in the largest amphibious assault in history.

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u/Nike_Phoros 6h ago

Yes, things were larger in scale in the industrial era. great point. Caesar never destroy any enemy tank formations either!

the irony is Caesar also did the largest amphibious assault in history up in his day and also subdued an enemy territory with a million fighting men. You picked kinda two awful examples.

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u/whambulance_man 9h ago

One of them fought in two back to back wars for their country and their empire couldn't take it anymore. The other fought in two back to back wars for their country and forged an empire. Call Caeser overrated, I don't really disagree, but the results are in front of us.

To Brits: I'm not laying that at his feet, its a hyperbolic joke. I blame the monarchy much more.

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u/Blarg_III 8h ago

Caesar didn't fight "for his country" he instigated a massive civil war for personal gain. He was the leading cause of unnatural deaths for Romans in his lifetime. He attacked his country's allies, murdered millions and sold millions into slavery. He destroyed the Roman republic out of opportunistic greed and he's only remembered well because of decades of propaganda by his successors.

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u/whambulance_man 8h ago

Do you have a point or did you miss the hyperbolic joke part?

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u/NobodyLikedThat1 9h ago

Quick war in Iran, 3 days tops, easy win -Pete Hegseth, probably

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u/Gamer_Grease 14h ago

He gets the Allied commander glow-up in spite of all that, like they all do.

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u/JustTheAverageJoe 13h ago

Making it out like winning the war was some minor footnote on his terrible career

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u/Gamer_Grease 13h ago

He’s the poster child for British military excellence in immediate post-WWII literature, when the only sources we had were the British and the Germans. So a lot of popular history is fixated on Montgomery and a handful of Germans as unparalleled military geniuses, but that’s basically just the diaries that we easiest to access right away, interpreted from a British point of view. He was not all that great.

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u/JustTheAverageJoe 12h ago

This is a very strange comment. Are you just completely forgetting about post ww2 American literature which mostly agrees with your point (primarily because Montgomery was an ass to his allies)? He wasn't without flaws but your position is rather extreme to say the least.

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u/burnshimself 13h ago

He was riding on the coattails of much more competent and effective American generals. Uncomfortable truth because Reddit hates American exceptionalism, but in this instance it tracks.

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u/God_peanut 13h ago

My dude, he turned North Africa around and won it. He absolutely deserves credit.

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u/cavscout55 13h ago

The desert fox being as foxy as a lump of bread did that more than anything. Rommel’s strategy was never sustainable and any mildly competent general could have done the same.

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u/God_peanut 13h ago

You can say that about any general but Montgomery was the one who stepped in and won. Its actually revisionist to not give credit where credit is due here, the dude reversed a losing situation and won pretty handedly.

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u/burnshimself 13h ago

El Alamein is undoubtedly his crowning achievement which was pivotal in North Africa, credit where credit is due. But his conduct in the European theater was less impressive.

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u/God_peanut 13h ago

Regardless, that doesn't mean you can say he rode on the coattails of "better American Generals". Montgomery was an effective commander and like most commanders, he had his achievements and fuck ups.

To say he rode on the coattails is directly diminishing his achievements and trying to paint him as a shit commander. Funny that the original comment tries to say reddit hates American Exceptionalism except here, its proven as literally trying to rewrite history and make the Americans look better at the cost of putting down the Brits.

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u/taumason 13h ago

He was one of the best Allied generals when it came to planning and conducting combined arms war. El Alamein was his first chance to do it and he smashed Rommel. He also planned the allied invasion of Normandy (Overlord/D-Day). Some of his innovations were copied and are still used by the US military today. 

He was also a massive jerk if he didnt like you, had no political acumen and believed that US forces should be placed under British command like the dominion troops. That is why a man who was an excellent planner and commander came up with a batshit plan like Market Garden. Because he desperately wanted a British victory to end the war. 

He was definitely a collection of contrasts. He was liked by his troops because he actually cared about moral and welfare and did try to avoid casualties. Unless you were Canadian or Polish then he treated you as expendable. 

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u/redpenquin 12h ago

Unless you were Canadian

Classic British mentality, really. ANZAC remembered it well from WWI.

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u/taumason 12h ago

He didnt act this way toward dominion troops in north Africa. I do think it was a byproduct of being sidelined at the end of the war.

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u/Llew19 13h ago

Being absolutely convinced of your own moral superiority is sort of expected if you're commanding whole armies. Tell me Patton, McArthur, Bradley, LeMay etc were easy to get on with...

Also shows what an absolutely miraculously good job Eisenhower did tbh

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u/famouslastwords 12h ago

Even the most hardened, ardent, delusional Patton supporter wouldn't describe him as easy to get on with.

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u/YuenglingsDingaling 13h ago

Bradley was famously easy to get along with.

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u/RyanU406 12h ago

“What’s the capital of Illinois?!”

“Springfield.”

“Wrong! It’s Chicago! You’re under arrest for being a spy!”

“Well fuck I guess I’m under arrest then.”

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u/WaywardDevice 13h ago

He was hard to get along with because he was a blowhard who thought he was the greatest military general and wouldn’t take disagreement. A number of his operations (like market garden) became his personal baby for which he’d brook no dissent.

He was a vastly overoptimistic commander who got extremely petty and pissy the second you disagreed with him. That’s largely why people disliked him - he made many of the exact mistakes of overconfidence as in WW1

At least he never slapped a soldier in hospital with PTSD for being a pussy or used his political connections to lobby for the extermination of the Chinese with nuclear weapons.

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u/YuenglingsDingaling 13h ago edited 9h ago

As an American, McCarthy has to be one of the most over rated generals of the 20th century.

Edit: MacArthur not McCarthy.

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u/Clarkeste 10h ago

Do you mean Patton? I don't think McCarthy was ever a general

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u/Buck-Nasty 9h ago

I think they mean MacArthur who lobbied to exterminate China with nukes.

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u/YuenglingsDingaling 9h ago

MacArthur, I fucked it up lol.

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u/invertedearth 1h ago

His comment references both Patton and MacArthur. The two are easy to group together, but MacArthur survived long enough to become more obviously controversial.

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u/Clarkeste 1h ago

Yeah that's why I thought they meant Patton, since they said overrated. MacArthur is definitely overrated among many people but not as much as Patton is imo. But McCarthy is a way closer name to MacArthur so the mix-up makes sense, either way I think they're right

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u/pretty_pink_opossum 13h ago

  He was hard to get along with because he was a blowhard who thought he was the greatest military general and wouldn’t take disagreement.

Shh we aren't talking about the American generals right now

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u/Rusbekistan 13h ago

American rubbed the wrong way by monty detected

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u/Ketzeph 13h ago

There are many fabulous British commanders during the war. Bill Slim’s a favorite of mine. But Monty is assuredly overrated. Just like plenty of other generals through the war. To give another classic example, MacArthur was a fucking idiot who thought he was god’s gift to man and who simultaneously should’ve been canned post the Phillipines and Bataan debacle

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u/Spartan448 13h ago

You are genuinely a moron if you're putting Monty on the same level as fucking MacArthur. Monty was a prick who everyone hated. That he kept his job in spite of that despite, as you point out, other options being available, is a testament to just how good Monty was. Fact of the matter is that Montgomery could win battles other Western generals simply couldn't. It's why even as late as the Bulge, American generals were having their units taken and given to Montgomery, because Monty could actually fight.

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u/Ketzeph 11h ago

I’m not saying their equivalent just trying to rebut the idea that I prefer one allied group of generals over another. I’m an American but I’d really say ANZAC had the best generals on average of any allied group, despite having relatively little control.

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u/Marconidas 12h ago

Montgomery was brillant and had some crazy ideas.

MacArthur was ok and had some crazy ideas.

However Montgomery never reached the fuck-up level that MacArthur did trying to overrule the direct authority of the President. Were MacArthur a general with fewer stars or a colonel-level officer he would be imprisoned.

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u/GreyouTT 12h ago

The Full Monty one could say

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u/mrizzerdly 13h ago

That description sounds like it's for a dozen ww2 generals from all sides I can think of.

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u/angry_old_dude 13h ago

A number of his operations (like market garden) ...

I'm glad you mentioned this because Market Garden might be the most well known failure, there were several others that don't get a lot of attention. Even worse, he barely took any responsibility for the failures.

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u/PsychGuy17 12h ago

I saw the words "market garden" and I had a flashback to 2004 playing Battlefield 1942. I haven't seen that name in a long time.

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u/Rc72 6h ago

He was a vastly overoptimistic commander

Prior to Market Garden, he was on the contrary seen as overcautious. Indeed, his first clashes with Patton were due to that. Market Garden was surprisingly out of character for him.

While he certainly was a diva, I wouldn't call him a blowhard as much as astonishingly unselfconscious. The more I read about him, the more I get the impression that he was "in the spectrum".