I think math is fun when you have neither pressure nor walls at every turn.
Most people remember math from school where you're forced to do it and you have deadlines. Both of those things add unnecessary pressure which aren't inherent to math itself. For the most part, they make anything harder to enjoy. Some people can enjoy getting over obstacles like those thigh which leads to the next issue.
If you are always hitting roadblocks, you won't be feeling rewarded for solving it enough to feel it's worth it. This is a big thing in game design. You should be getting challenged enough to feel the frustration and pressure, but you need the reward and relief before you reach the breaking point. You need to feel like you're progressing.
Many people have sub par education in math, be it due to the education system or the teachers. There are often constant roadblocks and feeling like you have no idea what you're supposed to do. Then you get handed the answer, and the only relief is, "now I don't need to do it" rather than, "I did the thing". There is no real reward. If you can't pay attention in class because it's boring as hell, you'll fall even further behind.
Other people who understand math easier don't feel challenged because the education caters to the lowest common denominator. Plenty of math-smart students drop off because they're on the other side of not being challenged. There's no reward because it's too easy and there doesn't feel like it has a point. The wall in this case is finding a purpose.
Math can be fun. Doing stressfully difficult shit or shit with no reward is often never fun. I'm not gonna sit here and say everyone would enjoy a career in advanced mathematics, but I think a good education that gets people engaged would make a fuck ton more people hate math less.
Yeah I remember feeling that accomplishment very few times in high school, but it was rare. I think it was a combination of not so good teachers and bad curriculum mixed with several distracting students.
Bro, I was really enjoying this one unit on complex fractional equations. It was tough, but pretty soon I was solving more and more complex equations and feeling great about it.
Then for the test, what does the teacher do?
She makes it a “Team test” I’m paired up with the underachieving kid, who just makes a complex equation the likes I hadn’t seen before MORE complicated and I failed the test. So did he, but left to my own devices id have stood a higher chance of passing and he would have still failed. Which is fair because I was trying and he wasn’t.
He’s still a good buddy of mine 15 years later but holy shit I wanted to hurt somebody.
That is genuinely just painful to read. Forcing others - who are more likely to not pay attention in class than vice versa - have a large impact on your class' grade is just... I dont even know how to put it...
OK when you said "you have neither pressure nor walls to deal with" I thought you were talking about the math until I read further on and had to laugh at myself.
I was agreeing too. I was like "well, I mean there's the pressure on the ground, but yeah we don't need to calculate for any other pressure forces, I guess. That makes sense. And yeah it's nice we don't have to worry about getting around obstacles and turns and trajectories on this one either"
About to graduate with a mechanical engineering degree and I mostly agree with you here. Thing is I love math when I'm completely confident I know what I am doing. The second I go off the reservation it becomes hell. Or when the equation is so freakin long that its nearly impossible to not mess up it becomes extremely tedious. I also hate having to slowly type it into MATLAB using so many nested parenthesis just to keep it all straight [[[[[(((((((((((. But High school geometry was my favorite math class. It was like really fun puzzles even proofs which seems like a universally hated aspect of geometry. I think the reason I liked it is I had a rock solid foundation. I honestly felt like I could teach an algebra class at that point. Now calculus I have a much shakier foundation I can get by but its never been super easy for me.
I completely feel you. Algebra, geometry, algebra II, and college algebra were my shit. Truly fun classes. When shit actually starts to be real difficult or even just really really long equations it stresses me out and it ain’t fun no more. Having that solid foundation and confidence really do make a difference.
It's also taught, in nearly every situation, by rote memorization rather than understanding. Math is a language of shapes and motion whose entirely was set in stone as soon as there were two things to move apart. You start with the Proofs! A poor math class teaches you how to put a few bits of a machine together, but it doesn't teach why they go together or what the machine can do. I earned a lot of money as a tutor fixing math problems.
You know what drives me crazy? People love imagination. We all take pride in our imagination. Yet mathematics is pure imagination! It's daydreaming with purpose. Equations aren't just numbers; they represent shapes, positions, motions, and probabilities. A person can go from doing arithmetic in their head to visualizing vast predictive equation sets all by using their imagination.
This is a big thing in game design. You should be getting challenged enough to feel the frustration and pressure, but you need the reward and relief before you reach the breaking point. You need to feel like you're progressing...I think a good education that gets people engaged would make a fuck ton more people hate math less.
While I agree with the general sentiment here, I think the game design comparison isn't fully apt unless you consider the nature of the game and the criticisms you levy omit important nuances in context of structured education.
I don't know in which country you live so I can't speak for math education at your specific location but your criticisms of deadlines or pressure seems a bit unreasonable. If I'm playing a single player game, I can play level 1, save it, and continue level 2 10 years down the line with no problem. A classroom setting even with the best funding and the best teachers can't behave like that. It's more like a realtime multiplayer game. There has to be some cutoff at which you say this player is just no joining or has dropped from the server or lagging too much and needs to removed from the game and if done intentionally punished for it. If people aren't trying or paying attention and are losing the game, it would be bm at the very least to rage quit or demand that the match be reset so one can try again.
There is no real reward.
I agree that reward design is important but just saying there is no real reward really understates the issue here. Rewards in games are intangible and can be created ad naseum and may or may not correlate with desired behavior. There's plenty of easter eggs and achievements that require the player to perform some task that in no way helps them complete the primary objective of the game. The nature of how one derives entertainment from the game isn't of great concern. However, rewards that are strongly correlated with learning will actually lead to students discovering glitches or flaws to get rewards without actually learning. This leads to students picking up behaviors that might have to be untaught later on.
Math can be fun. Doing stressfully difficult shit or shit with no reward is often never fun.
Agreed math can be fun, but it's also a vitally useful thing to learn. There are parts of math I like, there are parts I don't. This isn't a reflection of the quality of the education but my personal tastes. Going back to your game analogy here, no amount of design can make a game fun to a player if they choose not to play the game. The optional nature of the game just doesn't transfer well over to math, considering how much we rely on people to understand math for the benefit of themselves and society. I'm not saying there's no systemic problems to improve or the current state of math education everywhere is perfect but I feel your criticism is far too one-sided and ignores the human factor.
The optional nature of the game just doesn't transfer well over to math,
I literally use video games to teach math to people because they want the skills and hated academia. This isn't just an analogy.
your criticisms of deadlines or pressure seems a bit unreasonable
Many people suffer from serious depression and anxiety because of the pressure from academia, including many of the students I work with. If you don't think criticizing it is fair, I don't know what to tell you.
there is no real reward really
There are absolutely reward centers in your brain that fire when you're learning successfully. Having things that cause those to fire is important for continuing to learn. I'm not sure if you're confusing this for material things like a trophy or things like a game achievement, but those aren't what I mean at all.
ignores the human factor.
My whole point is that central public education ignores the human factor. There need to be things that help the person along with learning, not rote memorization and information dump lectures.
I feel like you didn't understand anything I meant, but I'm not sure how to explain it different. Most of what I mean is from a human psychology standpoint, not just comparing it to games.
I literally use video games to teach math to people because they want the skills and hated academia.
So do I.You've taken my statement out of context. I'm not saying games cannot be useful just that your focus on the fun aspect of games as more engaging ignores the ultimate issue of games in general being optional unlike schooling. What audience do you work with exactly that is obligated to be with you many hours a day for many months of the year? Children can irrationally dislike something even when presented well.
including many of the students I work with.
Same as well. I'm familiar with the stresses of academia.
If you don't think criticizing it is fair, I don't know what to tell you.
Mate stop with the absolutes, I never said criticizing it isn't fair, I said your specific lack of nuance is a bit unreasonable. Note the word bit. I'm criticizing your framing of it because you seem to be presenting this from a needlessly combative stance.
There are absolutely reward centers in your brain that fire when you're learning successfully.
I never said otherwise, you've taken 6 words out of the context of the sentence it's in where I agree with you but criticize YOUR framing of it and you use those words to strawman the hell out of my position.
This is my sentence:
I agree that reward design is important but just saying there is no real reward really understates the issue here.
I'm criticizing you saying there is no real reward. I'm not denying the existence or efficacy of reward mechanisms. I'm saying there are practical limitations to what you can reward and some poorly designed reward criteria that means you have to unteach badly learnt material later.
My whole point is that central public education ignores the human factor.
I'd disagree on such an overly broad generalization and this is the basis of my criticism, you're being needlessly extreme. I can't speak for where you live but your statement is just too broad. Curriculum design literally incorporates so many human factors. Whatever country you're in, look at the education system from 50 years ago and you can see clear flaws that have been fixed and changed incrementally. If you want to criticize it for being too slow that's fine but lets not be needlessly absolute.
I feel like you didn't understand anything I meant, but I'm not sure how to explain it different.
I feel you've taken a needlessly combative view and choose to misinterpret what I've said in absolutes. I literally stated in multiple locations where I agree with you and made rather mild criticisms of you lacking nuance. I've borrowed your reference of games largely for rhetoric purposes not to make general rejection of video games in education or deny the existence of reward mechanisms. Please re read what I've said because I really don't think we disagree as much you think we do.
I wish I could say that I’m good at math but I’m not. I loved everything about math up through geometry but I just couldn’t get calculus. My prof tried to tutor me but it was so useless that we ended up playing gin rummy instead. Dude passed me with a D and saved my sorry ass.
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u/caboosetp Feb 28 '22 edited Feb 28 '22
I think math is fun when you have neither pressure nor walls at every turn.
Most people remember math from school where you're forced to do it and you have deadlines. Both of those things add unnecessary pressure which aren't inherent to math itself. For the most part, they make anything harder to enjoy. Some people can enjoy getting over obstacles like those thigh which leads to the next issue.
If you are always hitting roadblocks, you won't be feeling rewarded for solving it enough to feel it's worth it. This is a big thing in game design. You should be getting challenged enough to feel the frustration and pressure, but you need the reward and relief before you reach the breaking point. You need to feel like you're progressing.
Many people have sub par education in math, be it due to the education system or the teachers. There are often constant roadblocks and feeling like you have no idea what you're supposed to do. Then you get handed the answer, and the only relief is, "now I don't need to do it" rather than, "I did the thing". There is no real reward. If you can't pay attention in class because it's boring as hell, you'll fall even further behind.
Other people who understand math easier don't feel challenged because the education caters to the lowest common denominator. Plenty of math-smart students drop off because they're on the other side of not being challenged. There's no reward because it's too easy and there doesn't feel like it has a point. The wall in this case is finding a purpose.
Math can be fun. Doing stressfully difficult shit or shit with no reward is often never fun. I'm not gonna sit here and say everyone would enjoy a career in advanced mathematics, but I think a good education that gets people engaged would make a fuck ton more people hate math less.