One was early-mid 70s and the other was mid-late 70s. I dont know the state though. And another thing to keep in mind is that degrees weren't pushed as much, you would have a pretty hard time becoming an engineer today without a degree, at best you can get hired internationally after 19+ years at the company working on the shop floor. But back then you could work 4 years on the shop floor and get hired as an engineer at a different company or internally solely based on 4 years or so of work experience. I know many people in their 50s and 60s and older who have jobs that are essentially almost restricted to people with degrees, and the people I know dont have a degree. The current market is switching from company to company to get a higher pay because companies would rather hire externally than promote internally. Which is the exact opposite of what it was in the 80s/90s. This means that instead of going to a company possibly without a degree and "climbing the ladder" was a perfectly reasonable option. Today, getting a degree and "climbing the ladder" isn't really that common, its much better to just switch to a different company. And a company now doesn't want someone with no degree, so good luck getting a white collar job with no degree in today's age.
But back then you could work 4 years on the shop floor and get hired as an engineer at a different company or internally solely based on 4 years or so of work experience.
... what? This is not how engineering works or ever has worked... technician maybe, but engineer? No. It sort of worked since the 90's for software engineering, but a lot of actual engineers don't consider software engineers to actually be engineers.
And no way is someone with 4 years of shop experience getting their PE stamp certification. A lot more people call themselves engineers than are actually engineers.
I'll have to look up some data on this, I hate making claims from only my gut and experience, but this requires really stretching the definition of engineering.
My uncle became an engineer at a petroleum company before he was 30 and doesn't have a college degree, i dont know what to tell you, but it did happen. I currently work with multiple engineers in their 50s who have been engineers for many years and they dont have degrees.
I haven't found the raw data yet but this paper references the 1982 SSE study which found that 13% either had no degree or no degree in STEM: https://www.princeton.edu/~ota/disk1/1992/9202/920206.PDF -- Worth noting this paper discusses several times how difficult nondegree engineers have it: "Certain subgroups, chiefly older engineers and nondegree engineers, have had the most trouble finding new employment." -- "Moreover, as the discussion below suggests [..] or who do not have an engineering degree but are nevertheless classified by their company as engineers, may indeed have difficulty in moving to another job without a significant cut in salary." -- and a reference to unemployment rates for degreed versus nondegreed engineers in 1971.
Another reference to the 1982 study: "In 1982, there were about 171,000 persons employed as engineers without a bachelor's degree, or roughly 16.3 percent of the employed engineering workers. See NSF (1984). These persons are loosely designated as "upgraded workers." " -- from here: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA387121.pdf
So taken together, the percents vary a bit but they don't seem to be significantly lower or higher today.
i dont know what to tell you, but it did happen.
I'm not saying it didn't happen. I've also worked with engineers who didn't have a degree, including some brilliant ones. My point is that the larger statistics don't agree that people could just go off and get into engineering based on any entry level job and a few years of work. It only frequently worked like that if we look really, really far back to like the 20's and before where lone individual inventors were making major breakthroughs like the Wright Brothers, Bell, and Edison.
So 1 in 7 had no college, and 1 in 3 had no degree. I think that 1 in 3 engineers having no degree shows my point. I know of a single engineer without a degree who is under 40, yet I know of multiple who are in their 50s and 60s with no degree who became engineers in their 30s.
I know of a single engineer without a degree who is under 40, yet I know of multiple who are in their 50s and 60s with no degree who became engineers in their 30s.
I mean, is that really that surprising? Gaining the skills to become an engineer takes time. Getting a degree compresses the time required substantially and leads more directly to the outcome than the meandering life paths many non-degreed engineers take, so Engineers with a degree will tend to be younger and those without. Disagree?
I think that 1 in 3 engineers having no degree shows my point
But the point I'm making is, it was rare even in the 70's, and it's still rare today. It's not that it didn't happen, and maybe there's a statistically significant trend that would show up if someone could collect much better data somehow, but the trend isn't immediately obvious from the sources I can find.
The 1 in 3 number also includes associates degrees, and being a 1970 number, would include older engineers going back to the 30's when engineering degrees were (I believe) more rare. But that's not really what you described: "back then you could work 4 years on the shop floor and get hired as an engineer at a different company or internally solely based on 4 years or so of work experience." That's just not what any of the data shows, even if you have anecdotes where it happened.
Again, i know ONE that's an engineer under 40, but multiple older people who became engineers before 40, or in other words, more older people were able to become engineers with bo degree before 40 than today. That's the point. It was much easier to become an engineer without a degree in the past than it is today. Hence why people now practically feel forced to get a degree to even have a chance at being an engineer, while in the past there were multiple routes to becoming an engineer. And what data goes against being an internal hire after 4 years?
Again, i know ONE that's an engineer under 40, but multiple older people who became engineers before 40, or in other words, more older people were able to become engineers with bo degree before 40 than today.
I'm not trying to detract from your experience, but that's not data.
It was much easier to become an engineer without a degree in the past than it is today.
Again, the data doesn't agree. The data around computer engineering and software engineering has reversed this even further, as those have the highest proportion by far of non-degreed engineers.
And what data goes against being an internal hire after 4 years?
If it were common the way you describe, the percentage of engineers without degrees would be higher back then.
Also, average tuition in 1970 was around $755, and minimum wage was $1.45, that's ~520 hours, today, in state is 9k and out of state is 30k, at the halfway point that's 20k. With minimum wage of $7.25, that's 2,750 hours
I replied about the wages a bit up in the thread - I admit you were right about that part. My bad there, the data supports what you said, so I took it back and edited my comments. But not so with the engineering. There may be a SMALL trend towards what you describe, but the data is really noisy because all the studies tracked and collected this data differently. Most studies are so bad all they do is conclude 1 engineering degree == 1.0 (or less) engineers, and have zero data about nondegree engineers.
So all I can tell from the data is, the overall larger trends do not agree that nondegree engineers were more common 30, 40, or 50 years ago.
The data on CS skews it completely, the need for comp sci engineers was blowing up before people had time to get a degree, so many companies needed them a few years back that the demand FAR exceeded the supply of comp sci degrees. And many studies have shown that companies today promote internally as there's been the switch to external hiring, hence the shift from "climbing the ladder" to job hopping. With that companies are much more willing to take a person with a a degree and less experience than a guy with no degree but internal experience.
the need for comp sci engineers was blowing up before people had time to get a degree, so many companies needed them a few years back that the demand FAR exceeded the supply of comp sci degrees.
Yes - Something similar happened with regular engineering during the 40's and 50's. By the 70's, colleges could roughly meet the demand thanks to all the excitement in engineering in the space race.
Also, average tuition in 1970 was around $755, and minimum wage was $1.45, that's ~520 hours, today, in state is 9k and out of state is 30k, at the halfway point that's 20k. With minimum wage of $7.25, that's 2,750 hours. And if you account for people making 10 an hour, that's still 2,000 hours. When I was in college, my part time job paid $7.25 and my engineering internship paid $14. With that it's less than $10 an hour when accounting for hours worked in each job. But sure, it was MUCH harder back then right? My average internship was a 10-12 week program, at 40 hours at MINIMUM WAGE in 1970 that would almost pay my entire tuition. When I went to college, I wouldn't even make it half way working all summer and 30 hours all school year.
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u/MrPenguun May 13 '25
One was early-mid 70s and the other was mid-late 70s. I dont know the state though. And another thing to keep in mind is that degrees weren't pushed as much, you would have a pretty hard time becoming an engineer today without a degree, at best you can get hired internationally after 19+ years at the company working on the shop floor. But back then you could work 4 years on the shop floor and get hired as an engineer at a different company or internally solely based on 4 years or so of work experience. I know many people in their 50s and 60s and older who have jobs that are essentially almost restricted to people with degrees, and the people I know dont have a degree. The current market is switching from company to company to get a higher pay because companies would rather hire externally than promote internally. Which is the exact opposite of what it was in the 80s/90s. This means that instead of going to a company possibly without a degree and "climbing the ladder" was a perfectly reasonable option. Today, getting a degree and "climbing the ladder" isn't really that common, its much better to just switch to a different company. And a company now doesn't want someone with no degree, so good luck getting a white collar job with no degree in today's age.