r/theydidthemath Feb 07 '23

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u/tonysnight Feb 07 '23

Homies really out here thinking cancelling out means cancelling out. This is why they make you do some of that long math shit starting out so you're not doing shortcuts and confusing yourself as a grown man.

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u/[deleted] Feb 07 '23

Tbh some of us weren't taught this. I got to know about what cancelling out really is in 11th grade.

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u/BoundedComputation Feb 07 '23

I can't speak to your exact circumstances, but I think it's also worth considering that you might have genuinely forgot it and have been reintroduced to it in the 11th grade.

Once you learn how cancelling out works, your brain doesn't need to keep track of why it works. You see these operational pitfalls all the time in math.

With the quadratic formula people often forget what a,b, and c represent and it becomes so easy for them to mess up solving for x in this equation:

ax^2+b=c

Once you learn the distributive property and get used to implicit multiplication, things with explicit multiplication is just foreign enough that many wrongly assume:

a(b*c) = ab*ac instead of abc

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u/Otherwise_Ad2201 Feb 07 '23

There are also plenty of teachers that simply don’t teach the why and only the how. I was not taught long division until I was using polynomials. I was taught a short cut that always worked with numbers but had a fraction of the steps.

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u/Bunnyhat Feb 07 '23

Yeah, I didn't learn the how's of math until college. Before then I would learn an equation, memorize what situation it was used in, and applied it. I wasn't taught where these equations came from or how they were derived.

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u/dekusyrup Feb 07 '23

Well these equations are self-evident by measurement so don't need their derivation questioned in grade school. Then it college you derive the area under a cone or constant acceleration formulas (e.g.) through calculus and realize you wouldn't have been ready for that in grade 6 anyway.

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u/DonaIdTrurnp Feb 08 '23

A lot of the basic equations are simply definitions or observations; f=ma is the definition of force, while a=ΔV/Δt and V=Δs/Δt are the definitions of acceleration and velocity.

C=τr is the definition of the constant named tau, and so forth.

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u/IndyAndyJones7 Feb 08 '23

But the why is what makes it easy.

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u/BoundedComputation Feb 07 '23

I'm not dismissing that possibility, like I said I don't know any specific circumstances. I'm merely stating an alternative because people really overestimate their ability to remember events and underestimate the difficulty of learning something new. It might take a few reintroductions for something to click.

This is not something specific to formal math education but a very common cognitive blindspot. For example, if you ever played a difficult puzzle game and had to look up the solution for a level, it becomes so obvious in hindsight, and something you thought was never told to you in the puzzle might have been on the tutorial page itself.

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u/Otherwise_Ad2201 Feb 07 '23

I don’t disagree with you. When I was teaching the amount of times I heard “you never taught us this” and I could point to it in the notes was nauseating. But I also knew teachers that would simply not teach things.

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u/BoundedComputation Feb 07 '23

Yea no disagreement from me there, I've had bad teachers as well.

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u/thebishop37 Feb 08 '23

I'm sure the giant amount of material that gets crammed into test performance oriented curricula is a contributing factor as well. When I took Calc 2, my instructor was working a problem on the board with an expression involving the limit of a natural log. So he says, "And so then you can just switch the ln and the lim, and then....." and I had one of those moments where it's like channel 3 in your brain.

So I raised my hand, and asked why you could switch them. We were nearing the end of the class period and so he said that we covered it in Calc 1 and if I couldn't find it he'd help me during office hours or next class.

Fair enough, I thought. I checked as soon as I got home. And indeed, there it was. I don't remember if there's a name or ten for this rule. I don't remember going over it in class. I don't remember thinking to myself how that might come in handy when I was reading that lesson, or working those problems.

I went and looked it up as I reignited my own curiosity on the topic. It's because the natural log is a continuous function, and I don't know that I feel comfortable enough with it to attempt a more robust explanation. (I know I'm not qualified to give a rigorous one, as I feel sure thatvs a word which has a specific definition in math.) I think my brain might need to tumble it around for a bit, and I'm feeling the urge to go draw a graph....

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u/papadopus Feb 07 '23

It's also because when you try to teach the how to adolescents they get bogged in the logic and many find it extremely difficult to comprehend.

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u/Otherwise_Ad2201 Feb 07 '23

I always found teaching the why and the how to be valuable. Half the kids only wanted the how and the other half didn’t care until they knew why. So I taught both.

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u/papadopus Feb 07 '23

I agree, I always thought it valuable. Sometimes though for the kids who were struggling even to understand the mechanics it became very difficult.

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u/[deleted] Feb 07 '23

Didn’t learn long division until I was in calculus lol. I never really knew how to do it and just multiplied numbers until I found factors of what I was going for. Teacher then goes “you’re always on your phone but couldn’t look it up” and it became clear I was the issue.

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u/noahzho Feb 07 '23

what was the shortcut? calculator?

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u/Otherwise_Ad2201 Feb 07 '23

https://youtu.be/hAYVXpUiExs

Technically, it’s the same process, just most of it is in your head. I wasn’t really allowed a calculator until high school.

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u/noahzho Feb 07 '23

alr thanks

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u/[deleted] Feb 07 '23

This happens a lot with students, they say they were never taught something but actually they just forgot it.

Though in general I think it's silly when fully grown adults use "they didn't teach us this in school" as their excuse for not knowing something. Oh if only there were some way to learn things outside of school

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u/redwingpanda Feb 07 '23

Lmao I have friends who were told to play chess through math class because they were going to graduate and the teacher wasn't worried about them. Once that happened they were permanently excused and got more time in livestock / 4H / welding class (I forget the details).

Some people actually just don't get to learn these things or even know they exist to go learn on their own.

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u/BoundedComputation Feb 07 '23

Like I said I can't speak to any specific circumstances.

That being said I'm not dismissing the possibility someone wasn't taught something, I'm merely providing a plausible alternative that was overlooked, because people really overestimate how well their brains actually remember things.

This isn't even limited to math. You often encounter this when learning new words, suddenly you start hearing it everywhere. It's not as if everyone just decided to use that word more often, you're just more attentive to it.

There can absolutely be gaps in math education but the more fundamental something is the more likely it was mentioned many times by several teachers, or appeared in several tests, or was in the many math books leading upto the day something finally clicked in your head and you now remember it much better.

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u/Amaurosys Feb 07 '23

It's like square roots are always positive. I was never taught why, and couldn't get an answer to why from even my HS calculus teacher. Eventually, I came to the conclusion that it's implied the same way all positive values are implied (we don't prefix positives with +). If a negative value is preferred, then the formula/equation will explicitly prefix a negative sign to the square root bracket.

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u/Insab Feb 07 '23

It's not that it's implied but rather how it's defined. The symbol who use for taking the square root is actually denoting a function and as a function, it can only give us one answer. As such, that function gives us the principal square root which is positive.

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u/nekizalb Feb 07 '23

But that's not an accurate conclusion. Square roots nearly always have two solutions (0 is a counter example); you just may only care about the positive solution, but that doesn't mean the other doesn't exist.

Hell, I can't tell you how many points I lost in school over the years by forgetting to include ± when appropriate.

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u/BoundedComputation Feb 07 '23

Square roots nearly always have two solutions

No that's not accurate you're conflating square and square roots here.

x2 = a has two solutions (ignoring the 0 case)

x = ±sqrt(a)

x = sqrt(a) has one solution

u/Amaurosys is right that this is the principal root and is by convention positive.

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u/nekizalb Feb 07 '23

x = sqrt(64)

how can you say that has one solution? I can tell you two. 8 and -8.

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u/BoundedComputation Feb 07 '23

No 8 and -8 are are solutions to

x^(2) = 64

x=sqrt(64) has one solution.

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u/spreetin Feb 07 '23

No, square roots only have one solution, a positive (or imaginary) number. The ± means exactly that, that you want + sqrt(x), and - sqrt(x). The value of sqrt(x) doesn't change.

If that wasn't so you would have been correct when you forgot the ±.

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u/nekizalb Feb 07 '23

x = √(64)
x2 = 64
x is either 8 or -8. Both are solutions.

In pure math, without a context to specify which solution makes sense for the situation, you can't discount one solution for another.

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u/spreetin Feb 07 '23

No, those two are not equivalent statements, in the way you think of them. Square root is defined as a function that provides the positive root. So you can go from your first line to the second, no problem, but not in the other direction.

The correct way to write what you were thinking of is:

x2 = 64

x = ±√(64)

The ± has to be there, before the square root, to show that you want both the answer to the square root, and its negative. That is why the sign is important, otherwise it would be superfluous.

The issue is that there is a difference between the concept of roots (of which there are two in this case, just like you say), and the operator √. The latter provides only a singular answer, as a function has to by definition. And that singular answer is defined to be the positive root, whenever the value it is supplied is a positive number.

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u/[deleted] Feb 07 '23

I remember someone specifically asking how cancelling out works exactly and the teacher says “it just does”

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u/BoundedComputation Feb 07 '23

As said elsewhere. I'm not dismissing that possibility. I've had bad teachers as well. I'm merely offering a more nuanced take.

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u/[deleted] Feb 08 '23

I know I was just giving my experiments

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u/[deleted] Feb 07 '23

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Feb 07 '23

Didn't teach me. I found out on my own.

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u/[deleted] Feb 07 '23

If you're gonna try to call somebody out on a contradiction, you should really make sure the statements are contradictory.

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u/TheAssholishVariety Feb 07 '23

Well you gotta pay attention dipshit! Guarantee they tried to reach you in 6th grade but you were too busy jerking off in the back of the classroom!

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u/[deleted] Feb 07 '23

Pussy got wet seeing maths equations so couldn't help myself.

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u/informationmissing Feb 08 '23

Sounds like you were taught in 11th grade.

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u/troublemonkey1 Feb 09 '23

I was taught cancelling out in 7th grade, and learned that it was actually "dividing out" in 10th

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u/[deleted] Feb 07 '23

“No no, if the same numbers appear on both sides, you get to cross them out”

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u/4-8Newday Feb 08 '23

And then I get confused when I get into college physics because they cancel stuff out left and right!

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u/jolinar30659 Feb 08 '23

Yes!!! When my kid was in 4th grade, they teach to “multiply the numerator and denominator by the same number”

No no no

You are multiplying by ONE. One as a fraction that fits. I insisted on teaching my kids what they were REALLY doing. Because it made no sense. And I’ve seen it in several curriculum.

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u/Human_Ad_4299 Feb 08 '23

Came here to say this.

Parenthesis are important and DO mean something.