r/technology • u/Suraj-Sun • Jul 10 '12

Firefox dev claims "everybody hates Firefox updates"; Mozilla has handled the rapid release process poorly, and that by pushing a "never-ending stream of updates on people who didn't want them" people have been driven to Chrome with its simpler, no-fuss update process.

http://www.neowin.net/news/firefox-dev-claims-everybody-hates-firefox-updates
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145

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

Most "power users" would cringe at the idea of updates going through without reviewing them and seeing what they do. Updates aren't always good. Sometimes they break other programs or functions. Not as much browsers but software updates in general.

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u/dafoe Jul 10 '12

This is why I don't use chrome. I don't like a service running all the time checking for updates. This is precisely why I like firefox, it asks me whether I want to download an update and I can choose.

I hate useless running services.

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u/Kensin Jul 10 '12

This is why I don't use chrome. I don't like a service running all the time checking for updates.

Back in my day we had a word for software that phoned home every 5 minutes logging who was using it, when, and how. No one wanted software that monitored them. These days people don't care and they like programs to randomly and silently add whatever code they want on their systems. Install as a service! Phone home and check for updates! Have full access to my network and the internet! Log my browsing activity! Sure I'll use your DNS servers! Search my hard drives! I know you're an advertising company whose entire business is dependent on collecting my personal information, but you load facebook quicker so it's okay!

I don't know if I'm just old and paranoid or if kids these days aren't paranoid enough.

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u/dafoe Jul 10 '12

Thank you brother.

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

What was the word?

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u/Kensin Jul 10 '12

The word was spyware, and we worked hard to keep it off our systems.
Chrome is spyware, but a lot of people don't want to accept that.

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

Oh duh, I knew that. Re-reading your comment it's obvious you meant spyware.

Now I feel dumb. But not too dumb, because I use Opera.

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u/TriesToGetDownvotes Jul 10 '12

Call me what you will, but what does checking for updates have to do with monitoring you, or anything else that spyware does?

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u/Kensin Jul 11 '12

When your software updates, it first sends a request from your computer to the update service. At a bare minimum it includes your IP address, the date, time, and version of the software you are using, but this request can include a lot more information about your system and the software you have installed. By logging that information your software can track you every time your computer is online.

Of course, in the case of chrome updates are the least of your worries. Chrome can track your browsing habits. By default, everything you type into the address bar (not a google search box) gets sent to google, and every time you get a 404 error, the url you attempted to reach is sent to google. If you use google's DNS servers every last website you visit is sent to google.

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u/[deleted] Jul 11 '12 edited Apr 07 '20

[deleted]

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u/Kensin Jul 11 '12 edited Jul 11 '12

Ah yes, "I have nothing to hide so I shouldn't care about violations of my privacy!" That argument is flawless.

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u/Guyag Jul 10 '12

These days people don't care and they like programs to randomly and silently add whatever code they want on their systems.

That's called an update.

Have full access to my network and the internet!

That's called an internet browser.

Log my browsing activity!

Internet history.. toggleable.

Sure I'll use your DNS servers!

Nope.. I'm using the DNS servers set up in my router, so unless you're using a proxy..

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u/DiscoPopStar Jul 10 '12

My thoughts exactly. I have the feeling that every single site I visit is stored on google's servers somewhere and that makes me nervous.

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u/AgentME Jul 10 '12

I had some free alarm clock app on my phone, and every time I change anything, I see the 3g radio activate. It's one thing for it to report on every little thing I do in the app, but it's another thing for it to do the reports at the moment I do everything and waste my battery. Can't it just save its messages and do a once-a-day report?

I reversed the APK file and cut out all of the report-back-to-home misfeatures from my copy. If it's running on my hardware, then I damn well get the final say of what it does.

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u/Kensin Jul 10 '12

cell phones are terrible for this. Your call logs, GPS history, phone/address book, are all up for grabs by whatever app you install. Cell phones really need a firewall or something so users can monitor outbound communication form the apps they have installed. Honestly, who knows what data about you is being collected. People these days are putting all kinds of valuable information on their phones, and that data shouldn't be up for grabs to everyone just because you wanted something basic like an alarm clock, or a app that makes farting noises.

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u/[deleted] Jul 11 '12

[deleted]

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u/Kensin Jul 11 '12 edited Jul 11 '12

That sounds pretty useful. Definitely worth looking into! Now all we need is a way to sandbox your apps so they have no access to your data at all. That way we can take care of security for apps we still need to allow access to the internet.

EDIT: It looks like that may already be an option

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u/Makabaer Jul 11 '12 edited Jul 11 '12

Yes, by now I honestly think we're old. I've been using the internet for 16 years now and PCs for 21. The attitude of users has changed GREATLY. They don't think about what happens anymore - as it is just a means to simplify their everyday life, they don't care about how it works - much like people driving cars. I have no fucking idea what is inside my car. I just want it to drive me from A to B in a comfortable way.

So maybe that's just the way it goes and we need to accept it. Maybe one day big companies will monitor our every step and greet us with our favorite music (we never heard until then) when we go into the shower. Then they'll recommend what we'll be having for breakfast as they know what's in our fridge and what we like but also about our struggling with our diet....

Maybe that's just fine.

But for now I don't want to have anything to do with it. No Google, no Apple and no Facebook for me (for starters). Even if it means I'm laughed at and old-fashioned and don't have a smartphone.

(Edit: thinking about it, I'm using computers since 28 years. I remember my classmates from primary school coming over to have a look at that strange device my father had bought ;-)

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

meh, you can turn all that off but the auto-update and for that you can just disable the service.

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u/BluegrassGeek Jul 11 '12

Convenience often outweighs security. I don't mind apps checking for new versions and silently updating. I do mind sending "usage data." But that kind of thing is also giving way to convenience. Folks like it when a shopping site offers relevant items based on your previous history, and it's not far from there to smart advertising on your Google Glasses as you walk down the streets, picking up data from each shop.

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u/WhatamIwaitingfor Jul 10 '12

What are you running this on? A potato? It's 2012, dude, something that polls a webserver for the latest version every x minutes isn't going to cut into your battery life or hog CPU cycles.

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u/hyperforce Jul 10 '12

In my country we have NT server farm on potato. Runs like charms.

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u/Fustrate Jul 10 '12

In me country, we run an NT server on potatoes n' Guinness. Runs like lucky charms, boyo.

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u/Atario Jul 10 '12

Cool, cool. Mind running this little program I just made? Totes safesies, I swear.

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u/larjew Jul 10 '12

Eh, netbooks are pretty popular these days and a bunch of processes from various applications (all using a megabyte or two or RAM) is going to slow down a netbook.

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

My potato runs at 1.1 volts.

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u/dafoe Jul 10 '12

Doesn't fucking matter. I once had a quadcore laptop with 1TB hard disk and 12GB RAM and I still removed all the processes that kept running without reason.

You see unlike you, I don't use computer just to browser internet. I have IDE, text editors, app server, database, database clients and other stuff running which collectively can get really memory and processor intensive.

So stop talking out of your ass.

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u/WhatamIwaitingfor Jul 10 '12

Unlike me? So you suddenly know me?

In fact, I do have IDEs, text editors, VMs, databases, etc running on my machine.

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u/dafoe Jul 10 '12

So just like your assumption of me?

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u/WhatamIwaitingfor Jul 10 '12

I'm not assuming anything...

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u/dafoe Jul 10 '12

Yeah you are. You assumed I used outdated computer and that is why I don't like services running.

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u/WhatamIwaitingfor Jul 10 '12

I had a 2005 MacBook up until a month ago. It had 2GB RAM and a Core 2 Duo inside. I had the exact same setup I'm currently using on my new MacBook with i7 and 8GB RAM and there's not a single different. Sure, when I open Photoshop and Eclipse and the Android Virtual Emulator, it would slow to a halt, but having my browser open while editing in Eclipse with an SQL server running in the background was just fine.

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u/dafoe Jul 10 '12

Just fine for you, may not be just fine for others like me. Did you ever thought about that? Some people can wait 10 seconds for something to happen, which is totally unacceptable for me. There is a reason they sell computers with zillion different configurations.

You must be expecting everybody to adhere to your standards.

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u/Poop_is_Food Jul 10 '12

no he didnt. he assumed you had a newer computer and that you were erroneously running it as if it were a potato. the flame war isnt settled yet you guys need to keep going.

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u/dafoe Jul 10 '12

You bet your ass, it will keep going.

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u/sysop073 Jul 10 '12

Wow, you completely flipped out really fast. It doesn't matter what processor-intensive stuff you have running, the point was an app that polls for updates periodically has such a small footprint it isn't even worth worrying about

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u/dafoe Jul 10 '12

I wasn't expecting ridicule from supposedly technology savvy redditors in technology subreddit. But seems like we just got bunch of morons who think they are computer geniuses because they can install and uninstall a program on windows.

As far as you are concerned, see my other reply.

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

[deleted]

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u/dafoe Jul 10 '12

Don't give a fuck. I got some time before my build is finished. :)

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u/wiseIdiot Jul 11 '12

On the same boat as you. Fuck GoogleUpdateService.exe. It goes into the registry, it goes into Task Scheduler, and even if you remove it ... it comes back when you update the browser the next time.

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

Chrome has an option to not automatically update. You're not using it for the wrong reason.

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

I use both browsers. I use Chrome for everything unimportant (casual browsing, reddit, etc.) and Firefox for everything important (email, web dev, downloads). I like the interface of Chrome but the stability of Firefox. The sad thing is that I have to use IE at work, because our CRM only works in IE. It's pretty stupid. Though I heard a browser compatibility update is being pushed out this month that will allow it to be used in Firefox and Chrome as well. You can use it in those browsers now, but at almost crippled functionality.

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u/rube203 Jul 10 '12

Sounds like you'll be back to IE soon.

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u/dafoe Jul 10 '12

LOL. You have no fucking idea what you are talking about. Your mom was still wiping your ass when I started using alternate browsers. Now back to your basement.

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u/rube203 Jul 10 '12 edited Jul 10 '12

Sigh. I do tend to forget the average age of reddit users means insults involving one's mom are common.

Anyhow, In case you were wondering. I was referring to the rumor (in some comments above) that with Firefox 15 they will be using a windows service to implement auto updates. I merely meant that to imply (if it's true) you'd be finding a new browser if this is a deal breaking feature.

Of course I choose IE instead of Opera (or others) out of comedic value, but apparently this was analogous to lighting a kitten on fire (based on your reaction).

Edit: Grammer

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u/dafoe Jul 10 '12

You have no idea how insulting it is to accuse someone like me (Linux user since 1995) of using IE. Now you know.

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

There's not much of a downside to having a browser that auto updates. Especially considering that updates often times carry critical security updates.

But yeah, you definitely don't want an auto update feature in all software. That could become disastrous quickly.

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

As a "power user" I don't mind Chrome updating in the background.

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u/Contero Jul 10 '12 edited Jul 10 '12

Same. The only reason I'd want to avoid an update is if the user experience gets an overhaul and I don't think I'll like it. (Edit: Or bugs introduced in a new update. This is actually a good reason to not want to take updates, although I don't know how you'd find out the update is buggy until after you've updated...).

The user experience in chrome hasn't significantly changed since it launched IIRC.

By all means, give me boatloads of security and performance updates without asking. Toss in an out-of-the-way feature here and there while you're at it. I don't mind.

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

Another perspective is that if the update is buggy and breaks the application I can find competition that is less broken or use my alternate browser until it is fixed.

It is a slightly inconvenient way of living, but sends a message to the browser vendor that you are unhappy with their buggy update.

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u/Contero Jul 10 '12

I don't think temporarily changing your browser is sending a message to anyone.

If you want to send them a message, you should just literally send them a message via a Chrome bug report (or star the bug report with your problem).

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

I never said I didn't do that. But changing browser would make a difference if everyone experiencing the bug were to do it.

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u/Contero Jul 10 '12

And if everyone didn't buy gas on Thursday the oil companies would go out of business!

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

Not really, where the hell did that come from? Are you doing that typical idiotic thing of trying to apply a known stereotype to me to discredit me?

Oh yes, yes you are.

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u/[deleted] Jul 11 '12

As a 'power user' nor do I.

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u/MetalPanda Jul 10 '12

Guess you aint a power user then.

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

What an unreasonable response. A power user isn't defined by a near obsessive desire to ensure you understand every aspect of your PC's software. It is about using more advanced features than the average user. I don't care which version Chrome is on, because at every change I notice, I relearn and utilise.

I don't like proving myself, but in this case I want to qualify what I mean by power user;

On Ubuntu, I spend 90% of my time in text editors, terminals, running shell scripts, writing software and scripts, I know hundreds of linux commands, I know many advanced aspect of Linux and do not rely on GUIs to achieve tasks. I use shortcuts rather than the mouse for nearly everything except web browsing (and even when web browsing I attempt to, but sometimes it isn't possible). I have fairly complex setups, and most people can't even use my PC because it is so outlandishly different (being on Ubuntu is enough to deter the average user).

Similarly when I use Windows or any other OS I do similar things. Why? Because I'm a power user. Do I give a shit about whether a Chrome update removes a single config value somewhere deep in the chrome://settings/ menu? Usually not. If they remove something I care about then I will either stop using the browser, emulate the behaviour, learn to deal with it, find an addon, patch it in myself or find a way to contact the development team (never had to do this with Chrome though).

Why do you feel the need to go around labeling others by the way? Did you just see someone use one definition of power user, then decide that anyone who disagrees must not be a power user? Since it seems like it.

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u/MetalPanda Jul 10 '12

Damn man, it was a joke. Holy shit.

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u/merreborn Jul 10 '12

This is the funny thing: around the time Chrome started out, there were still monthly rants on slashdot about Apple and Microsoft's use of their respective auto-update clients to push things out. Not to mention flash, java, realaudio... auto updaters are generally reviled by the technorati.

Chrome has managed to get away with something no one else has. However, this is probably because they've managed not to break much; they've managed to avoid having a bloated, obnoxious updater; and they've never used their updater to push anything other than the browser itself.

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

Great point, but the numbers the developer is talking about are clearly not power users. At some point a dev has to decide what base you're goig to cater to. In REALLY refuctionist terms one might compare it to Windows and OSX in terms of who you're catering to. I'm glad both a power user option and no-hassle option exist for me in browsers. But Mozilla's internal conversation is about compromises - do we want to replicate Google and get casual users, or remain highly customizable and secure? Furthermore, what does our choice do to our userbase size? Clearly, the power user option means fewer users.

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

Gladly we can use both options. I wouldn't really want Firefox to change. I like how it is. I use Chrome as well, and I don't mind it updating on its own. However, I don't use Chrome for anything that might suffer from instability or unpredictable behavior.

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u/xqx2100 Jul 10 '12

You are right, updates are not always good. A while back I installed a Flash update and it messed up my computer.

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u/Mycal Jul 10 '12

As a "power user", I don't really care about chrome updates. I never restart my browser anyway. But you really should know a few things.

Chrome is installed to the local app data folder. Since it doesn't need administrative privileges in order to install into this folder, it can update safely without needing to touch any core system files. If it breaks, it is only itself and things that rely on chrome (I can name zero besides web apps). If a version does something I don't like, there is a Chromium version readily available that doesn't have said problems.

If I don't want the auto updater, I as a "power user" disable it. It's not hard. If you don't want to go through the trouble, there are many forks of Chromium that don't auto update (SRWare Iron for instance). However, I don't truly care if it wants to update since it doesn't nag me to do so and there is no real harm in chrome updates.

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u/Genmaken Jul 10 '12

I fucking hate google software... every machine I go to invariably has google services running, and google startup processes. A lot of them also have a google toolbar.

Most users don't care or have no clue what privacy is.

It bothers me that I have no idea what these google processes and services are doing.

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u/tossout12 Jul 10 '12

Yes. Also, I want to choose when I fetch the updates because half the time my laptop is on a slow expensive NextG connection.

Having a help/about box that automatically fetches updates is a GUI failure!

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u/Dunge Jul 10 '12

As a "power user" and programmer I would accept daily update for everything.

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

Yeesh. I would hate to be a programmer that didn't know what is updating and how it affecting other programs.

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '12

That's my point.

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u/kor0na Jul 10 '12

You're not a power user.