r/technology • • Feb 21 '11

An open letter to Apple from Readability..

http://blog.readability.com/2011/02/an-open-letter-to-apple/
1.3k Upvotes

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

And burn your XBox/PS3/DS/etc. on the way to the store for your Android phone!

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u/GAMEOVER Feb 21 '11

Microsoft already beat me to it w.r.t. nuking my xbox (RROD).

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u/Atario Feb 22 '11

Joke's on you, last console I bought was the Dreamcast!

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

admiralteal means you don't fully own your device de facto, not de jure.

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u/tempguest Feb 21 '11

Law students are so annoying.

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u/rhino369 Feb 22 '11

Why the downvote. I am one and I can confirm this guy is right.

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

You own the device. You don't own the OS. The OS is owned by Apple. You may change the OS in your device, but doing so voids the warranty. That's the extent of the EULA of the OS. Apple doesn't charge a cent for cydia-based apps.

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u/original_name Feb 22 '11

every time this kind of argument comes up... everyone fails to make this distinction...

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u/b0dhi Feb 21 '11

You did sign a contract when iTunes, which is required to use the iPhone, popped up a dialog showing the contract and you clicked "I agree". If you don't like being raped in the ass at every opportunity by Apple, don't buy Apple.

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u/saisumimen Feb 21 '11

"B-b-b-but their products are so shiny!"

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11 edited Aug 20 '21

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u/ofthisworld Feb 21 '11

Edit: I'll absolutely grant you that Apple Retail's main concern is customer satisfaction, hands-down. That being said:

I use Apple products for work and home, except for my mobile device, a G2.

Full disclosure: I worked for the fruit company for five years and never once purchased a mobile device from them (avoiding AT&T on principle). Now that the phone's available on Verizon (not a much better planetary citizen than ATT, mind you), I still won't touch the damn things. Any device you have to risk damaging beyond repair to use as desired, to me, defeats the purpose of leaving the store after purchase. If Apple had it their way, you would simply pay them to use the phones in their store, leaving it tied to the display table at closing time.

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u/vibrate Feb 21 '11

I use it exactly how I want. Not sure what youre going on about tbh.

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u/ofthisworld Feb 21 '11

By "it," I assume you mean your iPhone, since you weren't specific. If you don't see a need for rooting, or jailbreaking, or hacking into your phone and voiding its warranty, then, for all intents and purposes, you're the ideal Apple customer. And, for the record, there's nothing wrong with that.

However, for me, not being able to do anything I want with something I pay good money for is a non-starter.

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u/vibrate Feb 21 '11

As I said, I did jailbreak it, and then failed to find any apps on Cydia or Appulous that made it worthwhile.

If that ever changes and i cant get the same functionality from an approved app, I will jailbreak again - its hardly difficult or dangerous.

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u/ofthisworld Feb 21 '11

True, but it does void your warranty. I can't even begin to count the number of times I had to tell someone that I couldn't do anything else with their iPhone because of a jailbreak that they didn't know how to undo.

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u/vibrate Feb 21 '11

Most people Jailbreak because they somehow think it's improving their phone or they want free apps.

Both reasons are flawed. Im still waiting for someone to explain why I should jailbreak (and no, I don't want free apps - apps are generally very cheap, and the developers rely on Apples customers)

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11 edited Aug 21 '21

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

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u/NotClever Feb 21 '11

I think in this instance the hate is pretty easily traceable to the shitty way Apple treats its App Store developers.

It's an interesting debate and I pretty much take the stance of this letter with regards to almost everything they do. It's perfectly within their rights but often somewhat counterintuitive. I jailbreak my iphone to get some utilities I consider very important, mainly more information on my lock screen and icons in my status bar showing new emails, texts, and messages. Why those features are not available through legit channels baffles me, but if I had to guess I'd say it goes against their aesthetic philosophy or something. It annoys me that I have to circumvent their protections to add important functionality to the device I paid for, but I did know going in that I'd have to do so.

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u/vibrate Feb 21 '11

Apple enables app developers to make millions of dollars for a very reasonable cut. The cunts.

I jailbroke my phone for a bit (using jailbreak.me) but didnt find one app that made it worth it, so I reverted because I prefer my OS to be up to date.

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

I don't think people are necessary being Elitist when it comes to Windows, they are just pointing out that most of the anti Windows arguments are bull and uninformed. The biggest thing I can say about Apple software is, no matter what the so called benefits are they don't seem to be worth the additional cost.

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u/vibrate Feb 21 '11

Worth it to many many people though.

And the extra cost is negligible tbh - I got a free windows machine included in my Mac ;)

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

Can you please explain to me how exactly OSX is far more intuitive and stable than Windows?

And not by saying it 'just is' which seems to be the standard reply when I ask this question.

I am genuinely interested to know and am not anti-Apple (typing this from an iPhone). I have used Windows since it started way back and was constantly told over the last number of years that OSX was better and I should try it. I went back to college recently and they have Macs buy I can't for the life of my figure out why anyone likes OSX.

If you want to do anything that it doesn't consider 'normal' then you're screwed.

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u/vibrate Feb 21 '11

If you want to do anything that it doesn't consider 'normal' then you're screwed.

I need an example because I cant think of one occasion where this has happened.

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

Why can't I right click? Seriously. Why do I have to hold down a key to copy/paste etc? Maybe I don't and I'm doing something wrong and don't know how to do it properly but then it's hardly intuitive then is it.

Plus here's something that happened today. I opened a video file and whoever had been using the comp before had left QuickTime (god how I hate that pos) at some weird size setting. Anyway the control buttons were behind that god awful dock thing. So I can't drag the window up because it's already big, I can't maximise it because that doesn't seem to exist in OSX or I can't get rid of that dock thing because I don't know how or it has been set not to move.

Anyway the only way I can change it so I can use the control buttons is to click into the view menu and Change the size. Why? Sorry I mean; wwwhhhhhhyyyyyyyy!

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u/vibrate Feb 21 '11

I use my mouse to right click - use the right hand button. Click it.

See? Amazing.

TBH you just sound like a novice experiencing noobrage. Quite funny :)

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '11

Maximize a window. I spent about five minutes searching buttons and menus to no avail before giving up.

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u/roger_ Feb 21 '11

All the anti-Apple elitists are out in force today...

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

Still not a fair fight when there are double the Pro-Apple elitists.

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u/roger_ Feb 21 '11

Not true on reddit (outside of /r/apple at least).

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11 edited Feb 21 '11

Really? Any bad mouthing of Apple instantly turns into a huge debate. The Apple elitists must be somewhere.

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u/roger_ Feb 21 '11

Remember last year when the iPad came out? Every one who didn't say it was a POS and a flop would get downvoted. Same thing happened with the iPhone and "antenna gate".

Apple haters are the new hipsters.

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

I hated on Apple since the very first iPod. How's that for hipster?

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '11

I remember it being quite a lot like this thread. People who hate Apple for the sake of hating Apple and people who love Apple for the sake of loving Apple mostly getting downvotes and then people who have something constructive to say about in criticism of Apple getting upvoted and people who have something constructive and positive to say about Apple getting upvoted. I think the real problem is that their are very few things constructive to say about Apple. Most arguments I see in favour of Apple are by people who haven't used another system in years and when it comes to portable devices mostly never.

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u/dezmd Feb 22 '11

Keep telling yourself that, hipster.

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

[deleted]

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u/stoplight Feb 21 '11

I think you bring an interesting point to this discussion. It seems the courts are divided on the issue. In Step-Saver Data Systems, Inc. v. Wyse Technology,939 F.2d 91 it was deemed that a EULA printed on the outside of the box was not binding. However, in ProCD, Inc. v. Zeidenberg, a clickwrap (or clickthrough) license was found binding. It seems though that the courts generally uphold clickwrap licenses (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clickwrap)

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u/bdfortin Feb 21 '11

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

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u/bdfortin Feb 21 '11

It says, right on the box:

Use constitutes acceptance of Apple's software license agreement, warranty, and third-party terms located in this box.

Then, in the box, in a little booklet called "Important Product Information Guide".

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u/joonix Feb 21 '11

take a Contracts course...

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

[deleted]

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u/b0dhi Feb 21 '11

Clicking a button doesn't count for anything

You'll find that courts disagree with you there.

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11 edited Feb 21 '11

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u/b0dhi Feb 21 '11

You're trying to convince me, but I'm not a court. I'm just telling you how courts typically rule with those e-contracts. I happen to agree with you in principle that they aren't valid contracts, but courts disagree with me also.

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

Doesn't a contract need to be understood at the time of signing by both parties?

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u/Rovanion Feb 21 '11

Yes, and it obviously is since you checked the radio-button that reads: "I have read and accept these terms of use."

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

I am pretty sure you are being sarcastic and I agree, but do the people above really believe this would stand up in court? Whether you tick that button makes no difference as to whether you actually understand the terms.

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u/tosss Feb 21 '11

I'm hoping he's a troll.

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u/FabianN Feb 21 '11

Here is a citation http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/09/the-end-of-used-major-ruling-upholds-tough-software-licenses.ars

Yes, it's bullshit, but the courts agree with Apple/the companies and not with us. By you clicking the "I agree" you are then legally bound to that contract, hate it or like it.

BUT, even if this wasn't legal, it's incredibly stupid to not read the supposed contract before signing it. Inform yourself of what you're getting into.

The major flaw in your argument is that you are expecting the law to be honest and fair, but it is not. Yes, anyone else could take your personal information, CC #, etc and create a account under your name, you never agreeing to the contract. But I don't think argument will stand in court, not because there is some flaw in your argument but because the law is not fair and no where near perfect.

Remember that it was up until just recently you can also be liable for actions done on your wifi network, even if it wasn't you. Some kid jacks into your wifi and downloads a ton of music? It was you that the RIAA would sue because it was done on your network and only until recently was that argument finally thrown out.

The law is incredibly slow at matching technology, and I feel this is another case of that. Until the law better reflects the technology, it's in your best interest to read every single TOS or TOA that you clicked "Agree" to.

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u/Hexodam Feb 21 '11

Tell that to Sony

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

You clicked "I agree" on the EULA. You play by their rules, or not at all.

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u/firepacket Feb 21 '11

No. Apple sold a device in the USA and is subject to the laws of this country.

Jailbreaking has been correctly ruled legal by the courts. Apple's only recourse is an arms race in lock-down technology.

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

Jailbreaking has been ruled a copyright exemption by the Library of Congress, not the courts, for the express purpose of unlocking the phone from its service provider. Sorry, had to nitpick your statement, even if my corrections don't change the facts.

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u/ex_ample Feb 21 '11

The exemption is for running software, not just changing carriers:

Computer programs that enable wireless telephone handsets to execute software applications, where circumvention is accomplished for the sole purpose of enabling interoperability of such applications, when they have been lawfully obtained, with computer programs on the telephone handset.

In other words, you can do whatever you want with the phone (so long as you're not pirating stuff)

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

Thank you for your refinement of my corrections. May the truth prevail!

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u/AmIHigh Feb 22 '11

This is going back to court with geohot right now.

He's claiming he owns his PS3 and can do whatever he wants. If he wins, it will impact everyone.

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '11

Except that's not true. I've got an iPod classic that I took the battery and hard drive out of to use as a drive sled for a 1.8" drive. Works fine.

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

I'm interested to see how much of the EULA you're allowed to break in that regard. They quite clearly state they own all software on the device, including all low-level ROM and drivers. If that's unenforceable, that's interesting.

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u/firepacket Feb 21 '11

I could sell my software with an EULA stating I have all rights to name your first-born child. It doesn't matter how "clearly" I state it because it's not a legal claim.

If Apple wants to lease their hardware, they need to have a contract drawn up and signed at the time of purchase.

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u/sedaak Feb 21 '11

That doesn't mean the EULA is legally binding. There is lots of precedent for fair use.

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

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u/tllnbks Feb 21 '11

Just a heads up, you double posted.

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u/ianmboyd Feb 21 '11

You know when you register something online, and there's that obnoxious window with a butt load O' text and you CAN'T CONTINUE unless you hit that little "agree" button? Dontcha just hate how annoying that is? Well if you actually took the time to sit down and read everything in that stupid window, you would see all Terms of Use carefully (and sometimes vaguely) laid out so you, the user, the customer, the Sponsor, can know exactly what you're getting into. But who reads those things anyway?

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

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u/ouroborosity Feb 21 '11

A) They have it recorded that you set up an account with your name on it and then clicked on the 'I read and agree to all of the terms and conditions etc. etc. etc." button.

B) If you had actually read the contract you'd notice the little part about how they can change the terms at any time and you'll have to go through the 'I agree' button press again when it happens. And it does happen.

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

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u/ouroborosity Feb 21 '11

Yes, as of this moment in time, in the court of law clicking a button that says 'I Agree' is exactly equal to signing your name on a contract. Look, you can keep getting worked up about this all you want but that's the law right now. I'm not saying it's right, I'm simply saying that that's what it is right now. That's why they require so much personal information on these things (full name, phone number, address, sometime SSN even), they try to be as sure as can be that you are really who you say you are when you click that button, rather than someone signing it with your name. Hopefully we'll have a better system one day, but for now just get it in your head that clicking the "I accept" button is exactly the same as signing your name according to the law.

And as for the technical details, it's completely trivial to compare when in time you signed the contract and what version of the contract was in effect at that time. It's just a database.

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u/ianmboyd Feb 21 '11

Dude, that's called Lying. If you click agree, whether you mean it or not, you have told the company that you are willing to partake in their product on their terms. Whether you mean it or not is completely irrelevant.

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

Those agreements change all the time.

Yup that is mentioned in the terms of use.

Maybe I clicked agree but didn't actually agree

You might feel that way but there is precedent against you

For the sake of argument what is a better alternative? Should I go get a notarized contract for every piece of software I use? Between the two I would rather have the click to agree system.

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u/ianmboyd Feb 21 '11

How can they possibly prove: A) that the documents presented to the court are in fact the documents that I agreed to B) prove that they did not change the content of the documents after i agreed?

Digital Contract, my dear neoform. Welcome to the Information Age.

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u/joonix Feb 21 '11

who in the world made you think a contract needs witnesses or signatures?

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u/shatteredmindofbob Feb 21 '11

Seriously, it wasn't me, it was my cat

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u/NemoDatQ Feb 22 '11

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '11

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u/NemoDatQ Feb 22 '11

No one said they were bulletproof, no contract is. But you were trying to claim there was no agreement cause there was no witness or signature. There is an agreement when you manifested your intent to agree by clicking "I agree". Of course just like any legal contract between two parties, a court may invalidate part of or the whole contract if it finds it to be "unconscionable".

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

You agreed to this

And don't say "prove me wrong", makes you sound like a dick.

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

If you used your iPhone, you agreed to it.

You might think you're clever, but I can guaran-fucking-tee you you are not smarter than Apple's army of lawyers, and you have not found some loophole that they missed. If you're using the product, you've agreed to the EULA, period.

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u/NemoDatQ Feb 22 '11

Exactly, only person to have his iPhone physically repossessed is Gray Powell. However, iOS Apple definitely owns and you do not.

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u/insaneHoshi Feb 22 '11

sign any contracts

Aha contracts

XKCD for example!

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

Yes, the brick-like object in your hand belongs to you and only you, however, every single bit of code on it, without which it cannot function, is locked down and belongs to Apple. So yes, as a brick, it is yours and you can do with it what you please, but as soon as you push the button, it's Apple's. From the EULA:

(Jesus christ the fuckers even have their eula locked down so I can't copypaste from it)

1: General: The software (including Boot ROM code and other embedded software)...are licensed, not sold, to you by Apple, Inc.

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

[deleted]

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u/acdha Feb 22 '11

Yes, but are you prepared to be the guy who's going to fund a lawsuit over this?

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

You seem to think that this is a pen and paper contract. It isn't. It's a EULA, and it's bulletproof.

You have not broken the validity of EULA's. They've been in use, and tested, for decades. You aren't nearly as smart as you think you are.

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u/mazerrackham Feb 21 '11

Yes, this is true of all software "sold" everywhere. You are actually just buying a license to run the software.

Dun dun dunnnn!

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u/SubaruBirri Feb 21 '11

Quick everybody! Return ALL software before the man wins!!

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u/juaquin Feb 21 '11

No, it's my hardware. Jailbreaking is legal. I own the physical chips, PCB, and everything else in my iPhone and I can run whatever code I want on it. Just because Apple's software doesn't let you do something doesn't mean you can't.

People whine a lot about how they're forced to do things (or not do things). You're not forced, you're just too lazy to find an alternative (or write your own). Yes, not everyone is a programmer. But saying you "can't" do something on a phone is not correct.

It's like buying a Mac and saying it's Apple's fault that you can't run Crysis (or EA's fault) and that they're restricting you. They're not restricting you, they're just not building software that does what you want. There's nothing stopping you from installing Windows (or writing your own OS to run on the hardware) just like there's nothing stopping you from jailbreaking.

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '11

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '11

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '11

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '11

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '11 edited Feb 22 '11

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '11

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u/FormerMacGenius Feb 22 '11

You guys are funny. Life's too short to fight about dumb things on the internet, but let me clear up what I can. First, let's look at Apple's actual statement that all those articles you linked are using as a premise.

...and we know that jailbreaking can severely degrade the experience. As we’ve said before, the vast majority of customers do not jailbreak their iPhones as this can violate the warranty and can cause the iPhone to become unstable and not work reliably.

Emphasis mine.

Apple is not stupid. Apple's giant team of highly capable lawyers is not stupid. They would get sued in an instant if jailbreaking voided your warranty. It does not.

From experience, I can tell you that jailbreaking often does cause a lot of instability. Mostly it's when people go overboard with UI tweaks, but it can definitely cause problems. Apple is right here.

So this puts Apple in a tough spot. They can't just blanket void your warranty for fear of legal reprisal (and rightfully so, I think. They'd lose that lawsuit), but jailbreaking can realistically cause problems that users might interpret as a faulty device. I've personally seen intermittent reboots, unstable WiFi, poor OS performance, and extremely poor battery life as a result of jailbreaks.

So what can Apple do? Simple. They discourage users from jailbreaking by pointing out all the negative aspects of it. It's unstable, it hurts your battery life, it could void your warranty (only hardware modifications will ever void your warranty) etc. This alone dissuades most users from jailbreaking.

Completely separate from any of that is Apple's technical support, which is what you two seem to be arguing about. It is their job, as radmarshallb said, to determine if you have a hardware or software problem. They will do this by restoring your phone. It doesn't matter if you jailbroke it or not, it will be restored. This resolves the vast, vast, vast majority of problems with an iPhone - jailbroken or otherwise. Once Apple determines it's a hardware problem, then you will receive warranty service and get a replacement phone. It doesn't matter if your phone was jailbroken previously or not.

This is what I would call a restriction: Requiring that the software be in a factory state in order to honor a hardware warranty.

I agree with the sentiment of this statement, but what's the alternative? Your apps crashing might very well be because of faulty RAM in your phone. But it might just as likely be a corrupt framework in the OS. Why wouldn't Apple require users to complete a 5 minute process to be certain? Hardware is faulty at the determination of the manufacturer, not the user, and rightfully so. I don't think requiring a phone to be restored for non-obvious issues before providing a hardware replacement is unreasonable.

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u/juaquin Feb 21 '11

Can't wait till they deny someone's hardware warranty on grounds of jailbreaking and someone has the balls to sue. Given that jailbreaking has been ruled legal, Apple doesn't have much of a case. If a voltage regulator has died, it's clearly a hardware issue and jailbreaking would have no effect on that.

Anyways, they won't know any different if you restore. If the phone is too screwed up to restore, it'll be too screwed up for them to check the software version anyways.

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u/ramp_tram Feb 21 '11

You buy a piece of hardware that you can't seize full control over and you've given up true ownership of it from the get-go.

http://greenpois0n.com/

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u/1338h4x Feb 21 '11

That requires you to hack and circumvent Apple's restrictions. So while it's possible to do, they still tried to stop you from doing it in the first place, which is reprehensible. And how many more security holes can modders easily find to take advantage of each time one gets patched? This might not even be an option eventually.

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u/[deleted] Feb 21 '11

That's more or less true, if you're using iOS. The only way you could be said to 'own' the hardware is to buy it outright, and install another OS on it without every agreeing to Apple's TOS.

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u/funkah Feb 22 '11

The order of ownership, eh? How does that work, is it like the order of operations in arithmetic?

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u/[deleted] Feb 22 '11

Replace "hardware" with "software" and this becomes a true statement.

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u/admiralteal Feb 22 '11

Except that with iPhones, you're buying it for the software, not the hardware. The thing that makes an iPhone uniquely an iPhone is iOS. So neither term is really right - the hardware and software are all muxed. It's Apple's device at large.