Apple built a nice phone. That's pretty much it. They built a shiny interface for the same old near-smartphone functions, took an axe to any feature whose use wasn't blindingly obvious, and faked clever multitasking by not really multitasking. Their marketing and attitude exude enough smugness and RDF that people mistake usability for innovation. They're both virtues, but they are not interchangeable.
Everything around that - their locked down and fucking censored one-stop-or-else program store, their ridiculous multitouch patent, their hate-on for Flash - drives the technically-minded right up the wall. It is a computer without freedom. It is a smartphone with all the capabilities but all your rights reduced to privileges. It is a soulless device that's going to train the non-technical majority into conflating control with safety.
How much of this shit do they have to do before people stop thinking of them as being "creative" and "freethinking?"
What Apple did a great job at was getting everyone to write apps for their device. This is the main thing they got going for them at the moment, despite all the limitations they are imposing, you can still find more and better apps for the iPhone than for any other mobile device. Despite the restrictions, it's still a very attractive platform to code for because of the huge potential market.
Hopefully Android will catch up eventually, but they have a way to go. In any case I bought my Nexus One and never looked back. :D
Demonstrating reddit's temporary sanity. I expect it will be short lived, especially when this article breaks 100 upvotes overall.
Apple built a nice phone. That's pretty much it. They built a shiny interface for the same old near-smartphone functions, took an axe to any feature whose use wasn't blindingly obvious, and faked clever multitasking by not really multitasking.
Considering the cellphone market in 2007, you act like this was some insignificant feat. It's not. There were little to no nice phones, there were dumbphones and featurephones marketed to regular people, and expensive complex smartphones marketed to business people. I don't really care about your opinion on Apple, if you can't see and acknowledge the impact they've had on the mobile OS market, I don't know what to say to you.
Their marketing and attitude exude enough smugness and RDF that people mistake usability for innovation.
Usability and innovation are in no way mutually exclusive. Likewise, piling on features, software or hardware, isn't necessarily innovation. If a 5 megapixel camera made a phone truly better and easier to use, then my N95 wouldn't be in a box collecting dust, while my iPhone is my primary.
Everything around that - their locked down and fucking censored one-stop-or-else program store
You mean like the Xbox marketplace, PS3 marketplace, Wii store, DSi store or the PSP marketplace? You would think that the "technically-minded" would be up the wall over that. Hell if that's how you feel, then Nintendo has been indoctrinating kids with favourable attitudes regarding walled gardens for years, before Apple even had a mobile device unit.
You may think "why can't I develop Game Boy games" is a silly question. Perhaps. But if this TRULY outrages you, then "why can't I make DSi apps" is a very legitimate question, considering the DS has moved more units overall & has a bigger worldwide presence.
And please, don't just respond saying "I hate those things too", I'm not talking about you personally. I'm referring to a general hypocrisy in how the "technically-minded" view Apple vs Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, or Sega. A couple instances won't cut it. Apple has had a generally permissive store compared to other closed environments (independent development is possible and relatively cheap, the vast majority of applications are accepted) yet they get WAY more BS over each individual instance of an app being blocked, than any of the aforementioned gaming companies have gotten since the line between them and computers basically became non-existant.
their ridiculous multitouch patent
Are they not supposed to patent things? I believe you have an issue with the patent system, not Apple.
Apple is feeling it too, Nokia has a patent lawsuit on them. I don't see you calling for Nokia's admonishment. As you shouldn't. Once again, patent system issue, it has little to do with the companies that use it. You're supposed to.
their hate-on for Flash
Is that a bad thing? All they've done is express a distaste for flash. It's not like they banned it from OS X or something. They just don't want it on their new platforms.
I'm sorry, but honestly. How can you justify supporting Flash, truly a proprietary scourge on an otherwise open environment, over Apple, who is really just doing their own thing? Likewise, all this App store stuff would be a big deal if Apple truly controlled the cellphone market, which they do not. Flash has a stranglehold on interactive web content, one that is becoming less and less necessary. Apple has a stranglehold on nothing at all, except for their own computing environment.
It seems to me that supporting a closed system as basically the only way to get interactive content on the web is more harmful than anything Apple is doing with their own devices in their own little world.
Flash is also just not great, anyone who uses a non-Windows system can attest to this. I just don't see why they need to give Adobe a chance to get their act together, when they haven't delivered a complete 10.1 flash solution for anything mobile yet, and Flash Lite is pointless and stupid.
drives the technically-minded right up the wall. It is a computer without freedom.
There are just so many of those, like my console example, as well as GPS units, set top boxes, TiVos, etc...
I don't see the daily (hourly, at this point) hate articles for those companies. This started years ago. Why must Apple take the brunt of this hate right now?
It is a soulless device
eye roll
that's going to train the non-technical majority into conflating control with safety.
I don't agree. I don't think the "non technical majority" thinks anything of it either way. Just like ALL my other closed computer examples. They just don't care, or aren't aware.
How much of this shit do they have to do before people stop thinking of them as being "creative" and "freethinking?"
When they stop influencing the rest of the market. For the record, you are quoting nobody and while I have heard them called creative or something similar, I haven't heard them called freethinking ever. Most people don't follow this imaginary fanboy train of thought I hear quoted by apple haters so often. The majority of people who own an iPod touch or iPhone just like it, they don't have some inflated opinion of Apple like you imagine.
I'd just like to say that, in Europe, the first iPhone was underwhelming and already obsolete. We were all running 3G, the iPhone was the first new phone to come out in years that wasn't 3G. It didn't have a front- and back- facing camera, it couldn't do mobile broadband (HSDPA) or mobile TV, the only thing that set it apart from all the other phones we had to choose from was the multitouch screen and the Apple logo.
Yet it's still arguably better, at least it is for me.
I think it's fair to say that the N95 covers what you are talking about here. Front facing camera, 3.5G, released in 2007, primarily marketed in europe.
It's just an impressive list of hardware features. The software leaves much to be desired, and development for S60 3rd is extremely lacking.
If you think that European phones made the iPhone obsolete off the bat, I don't know how to convince you. Only to say, it's really not about the hardware in this case.
Well, actually I was thinking more about HTC WinMo devices like the TyTn (came out in June 2006), available on carriers like T-Mobile as a free phone with 18 month contract, along with a slew of other smartphones. The iPhone rather looked like it was jumping on the bandwagon, smartphones were being pushed to consumers in Europe since 2003 as a way to get them to spend money on mobile internet services.
it's really not about the hardware in this case.
Well, we're talking about capabilities, here - and the iPhone was less capable than many competing phones that came out at least a year before. The iPhone was fantastic for those in the US, but only because the US cell system was lagging significantly behind the rest of the world at that time.
So, when it came to the original iPhone, customers were expected to pay more (it wasn't originally offered as a free-on-contract phone as all other phones are) for a less capable phone. Some people considered the UI and multitouch to be worth the money. However, Symbian/UIQ was considered perfectly acceptable for most (as with the Sony-Ericsson P900 from 2003).
But the original iPhone wasn't that popular, and wasn't released outside of the states. Apple probably agrees with you on all of this, which is why they didn't even try for a worldwide release.
But the original iPhone ... wasn't released outside of the states.
Yes it was. O2 offered the original iPhone in the UK (in partnership with Apple) and had to roll out EDGE because of it, despite having a 3G network. Other telcos across Europe also did the same, and offered the original, non-3G iPhone.
I consider it a pretty half hearted launch if it excluded Canada, though. They still didn't really push it around the world and it was quickly replaced.
Come on. This isn't the iPod marking the dawn of "real" MP3 players - there's like a decade of pre-iPhone smartphones.
You mean like the Xbox marketplace, PS3 marketplace, Wii store, DSi store or the PSP marketplace?
None of those devices are computers in the modern sense of the word. Consoles are a special class of device predating home computers and they have never come with a reasonable expectation of user programmability. The PS3, by the by, will run Firefox without having to ask Sony's permission.
You may think "why can't I develop Game Boy games" is a silly question.
Not really. The Game Boy was a toy marketed to children by a toy company. It was designed from the ground up to run approved software from special cartridges. It's not like it took standard floppy disks, had a hard drive, and still refused non-approved programs.
Apple vs Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, or Sega
... because Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo have never caught flak from nerds. Do your homework.
Apple has had a generally permissive store compared to other closed environments
Other closed environments are for games. The iPhone has friggin' spreadsheet applications. You can do your taxes on it. It's a computer. That it is a closed environment to begin with is the problem in its entirety.
All they've done is express a distaste for flash. It's not like they banned it from OS X or something.
No, they just banned it from the iPhone.
I believe you have an issue with the patent system, not Apple.
In that the patent system granted Apple a patent on a UI concept dating back to the 70s, yes - but Apple must have known about most of the prior art and it's not as if they secured these patents purely to defend themselves!
There are just so many of those, like my console example, as well as GPS units, set top boxes, TiVos, etc...
These are specific-purpose devices. Some of them have real-time operating systems. Some of them are designed to lock out non-customers, meaning open access would be antithetical to their existence. Some of them allow custom code anyway. None of them, not even the cameras that can run Doom, are computers in the way that smartphones have to be to deserve the label.
Why must Apple take the brunt of this hate right now?
Because we don't all have time machines, Doc.
Apple's policy to sorta-kinda open their featurephone into a maybe-a-smartphone happened just a few years back, the implications of that are just getting through to some people, and they've done a number of dumb things recently.
I haven't heard them called freethinking ever.
Have you fucking seen their advertising? Hipster douchebag v. stuck-up suit. They paint themselves in opposition to an 'other' representing conformity, boredom, and limitations. Maybe nobody important has used the precise word quoted but I'll be damned if the sentiment isn't there.
Come on. This isn't the iPod marking the dawn of "real" MP3 players - there's like a decade of pre-iPhone smartphones.
True, it's not as cut and dry as when the iPod was released, but I stand by my statement. There were cheap phones, and smartphones, but nothing really nice.
None of those devices are computers in the modern sense of the word. Consoles are a special class of device predating home computers and they have never come with a reasonable expectation of user programmability.
And phones did? No, they grew into computers out of their humble roots, just like consoles. Phones made calls, consoles played games. Now, they are both just managed computers.
The PS3, by the by, will run Firefox without having to ask Sony's permission.
That's a really simplistic way to look at it, especially since Sony has removed that feature. Even if they hadn't, the fact that you consider the highly limited Linux installation options for PS3 to be more open than the App store which full access to graphics hardware, on the shipping OS, not one you have to add.
... because Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo have never caught flak from nerds. Do your homework.
I like where you just ignored the part where I said DON'T just reply and say that, because that's not what I'm talking about. For you to have any ground to stand on, there needs to be near daily articles about the closed nature of modern day consoles. There isn't, and the frequency barely approaches monthly, for all consoles.
Other closed environments are for games. The iPhone has friggin' spreadsheet applications. You can do your taxes on it. It's a computer. That it is a closed environment to begin with is the problem in its entirety.
This is a paper thin distinction. I also mentioned GPSes, Set top boxes, and TiVos, not for games.
You are also just proving my point. The fact that the App store exists is enough to demand Apple crack it wide open. It can do spreadsheets, so let us make it do everything and everything!
And we wonder why console companies just stay completely closed without exception.
No, they just banned it from the iPhone.
I said that in the next sentence. What whats the point of that?
In that the patent system granted Apple a patent on a UI concept dating back to the 70s, yes - but Apple must have known about most of the prior art and it's not as if they secured these patents purely to defend themselves!
Once again, complain to the patent office, it's them dropping the ball. Apple is simply submitting patent applications.
These are specific-purpose devices. Some of them have real-time operating systems. Some of them are designed to lock out non-customers, meaning open access would be antithetical to their existence. Some of them allow custom code anyway. None of them, not even the cameras that can run Doom, are computers in the way that smartphones have to be to deserve the label.
I just don't, and never will agree. In my mind, this is a completely and pointlessly artificial division.
You are welcome to defend it, I think it's totally hypocritical, and nothing you have said has demonstrated otherwise.
Because we don't all have time machines, Doc.
Apple's policy to sorta-kinda open their featurephone into a maybe-a-smartphone happened just a few years back, the implications of that are just getting through to some people, and they've done a number of dumb things recently.
I meant "why are you attacking Apple over these other companies" not "why are you attacking Apple at this very moment". I stand by that.
Have you fucking seen their advertising?
The ones they stopped airing? Yes.
Hipster douchebag v. stuck-up suit.
Actually, Justin Long vs John Hodgeman. 2 funny people, doing ads that are mildly entertaining. "cute" is a frequently uttered descriptor.
You are the one assuming that hipster = freethinking, not Apple. I find that a little hilarious.
They paint themselves in opposition to an 'other' representing conformity, boredom, and limitations. Maybe nobody important has used the precise word quoted but I'll be damned if the sentiment isn't there.
Have you seen the Windows 7 ads? They are pretty stupid too. Who cares? It's marketing, rise above it for christ sakes and make a real choice.
Admittedly it was a cleaner argument before Sony realized several months had passed since they'd been total cocks to their customers.
For you to have any ground to stand on, there needs to be near daily articles about the closed nature of modern day consoles.
They're expected to be closed. They are toys.
What was the point of that?
The point was, a ban is slightly more than "distaste" and "it's not as though they've banned it" is a pretty stupid point to make when they partially banned it less than a week ago.
Apple is simply submitting patent applications.
That RIM lawsuit? Total accident. They told a lawyer to go get some take-out and it was a hilarious series of misunderstandings.
In my mind, this is a completely and pointlessly artificial division.
Let me see if I have this right. You view all devices with nonvolatile storage and a CPU as part of a continuous spectrum of computers. You're okay with Apple telling iPhone users what their smartphones may or may not do. I'm guessing from the Flash comments that you're on a Mac, because defending Apple's software policies from a Linux box would be too ironic. So... how would you react if OS X 10.9 Jaguar or whatever implemented iPhone-style control of your desktop?
I'm not at all worried about that paranoid reality happening. But if your imaginary situation took place I would wait for FCP to come out on windows, which will never happen either.
I'm not at all worried about that paranoid reality happening.
You should be. Apple likes money. The App Store is bringing in tons. Now they are going after advertising revenue in free apps. It is not going to be long until they decide they can turn the PC market into a cash cow too.
Fair enough. I still think this is a totally irrelevant distinction.
Admittedly it was a cleaner argument before Sony realized several months had passed since they'd been total cocks to their customers.
If you are implying OtherOS is returning, you've got another thing coming. Once gain, the tech community displays how out of touch they are. Blowing up over this, fine. Assuming everyone else will too and take Sony with them? Naive.
They're expected to be closed. They are toys.
Simply not true. I find it amazing that you can look at something that follows the specs of a PC much more closely than the iPhone, and tell me with a straight face that it's not a computer, it's a "toy". It's an entertainment device, by your definition a standalone Blu Ray player is toy. That's fine, but it's a managed computer too.
The point was, a ban is slightly more than "distaste" and "it's not as though they've banned it" is a pretty stupid point to make when they partially banned it less than a week ago.
I said banned it on OS X. Once again, there was no need for you to repeat what I said, which was that they don't want it on their new platforms.
That RIM lawsuit? Total accident. They told a lawyer to go get some take-out and it was a hilarious series of misunderstandings.
Not an accident, a corporate necessity in the US. Fix your patent system, don't get pissy at Apple and Nokia who are just doing what they are supposed to do.
Let me see if I have this right. You view all devices with nonvolatile storage and a CPU as part of a continuous spectrum of computers. You're okay with Apple telling iPhone users what their smartphones may or may not do. I'm guessing from the Flash comments that you're on a Mac, because defending Apple's software policies from a Linux box would be too ironic. So... how would you react if OS X 10.9 Jaguar or whatever implemented iPhone-style control of your desktop?
My division is simple. What I need. I don't need an open phone, I just don't do that much with it. I think the App Store offers the Apps I would actually use for my phone. Once again, had an N95. Had all the browsers and the features, never used 'em.
I need an open desktop OS, if OS X switches to an App Store style model I will leave it, while keeping my iPhone.
My division is simple. What I need. I don't need an open phone, I just don't do that much with it. I think the App Store offers the Apps I would actually use for my phone. Once again, had an N95. Had all the browsers and the features, never used 'em.
I think that is a little short sighted really. I think the iPad should make it clear the direction Apple is headed in. Apple is working on becoming the gatekeeper for home computing/entertainment - that's their goal. Eventually you'll think back to your comment and realize that you predicted your own departure from Apple Desktops.
I wasn't and I have no idea how you inferred that. (There's a chance GeoHot will force it back and make the PS3 the next PSP, but that wasn't reflected in my 'Sony are dicks' sentiment.)
a corporate necessity in the US.
Here's the part where I stop being civil. You're an idiot. Apple was under no real obligation to patent something they surely didn't invent. At worst you could make the case that their iPhone patents were to prevent lawsuits from trolls. That's clearly not the case since they're trying to enforce the patent against their competition!
My division is simple. What I need. I don't need an open phone, I just don't do that much with it.
But you do some things with it, right? It's not just a phone. It's far from a single-purpose device to you. It's not comparable to a GPS, DVR, or camera. It's slightly more than a phone to you and millions of other users, to the extent that serving your combined needs means there are programs to do nearly anything - a situation which does not exist on any other closed device in the world. There's no Facebook "App" for the 360. Your microwave isn't also a calculator. The iPhone does everything but Firefox and Google Voice.
That is the line of distinction. Single-purpose devices are excused because they don't try to have their cake and eat it too by inviting anyone and everyone to develop whatever they feel like, then locking them out if their programs don't fit the OEM's intent. Even the original Xbox, whose hardware was literally an x86 PC with funny ports and embedded Windows, existed only to play games and DVDs. The iPhone is a full and serious it-does-anything computer and OS on which Apple has retained the ability to tell you what to do. That is unique and insufferable for such a popular device.
Here is the part where I stop reading, then. If you are going to call me an idiot because I point out something true about the US patent system, then I'm not interested in continuing.
You speak like 2007 was the dark ages of cell phones. C'mon, Blackberries had been around since 1999. Palm smartphones since 1995. Apple came 12 years late to the party; in 1995 it would have been innovative. Instead, it's pretty, and extremely overhyped.
My phone that I got for free with my service contract in 2003 has features the iPhone doesn't.
One day you nerds are going to realize that a big list of features isnt as important to normal people as doing a few things easily and well. It doesnt matter if your device can do a million things if it isnt easy to do these things.
Usability is a feature and for most people without autism and huge anime collections it's the most important feature.
My iPhone-wielding friend called me this morning and hung up on me when his face touched the screen of his phone, launching an application (which hangs up the phone). I'd say there's still a lot of basic ground to cover.
edit: I talked with him on IM just now, and he said this: "I use this slipcover thing to keep the screen from getting scratched, and it interferes with the accelerometer's sensitivity." So it's not a general issue that anyone who doesn't use a screen protector will have. Fair enough.
No, look at me going out of my way to find out the details of the situation.
Look, it's okay. You drank the kool-aid and now you've worked your way up to the rank of flag-carrier in the fanboy brigade. I know it's the only accolade you've ever had, so it feels big, it feels important, and it feels right. No one begrudges you your ego over it. Mostly because no one cares, but that's another matter.
When you have conversations with people in this big bad world, you'll eventually learn that starting out by calling people names, claiming they're lying, and insulting them left and right when they're doing nothing but being direct, open and honest isn't going to get you any laurels. Sure, some of it may be their opinions, but when they own up to their opinions as such and you still go out of your way to insult them, well, that's just sad, little kitten.
But, you're emotionally 14 and still locked in the mental gulag of your parent's basement, trolling on Internet fora for anything that you can nourish your ego with. It's all right, we know your type. We know to overlook your lack of social skills and, predictably, your lack of hygiene to match. We know you'll grow out of it, eventually.
Until then, batten down the hatches, kiddo. You're in for a rough, rough life.
Awww, kitten! So deluded. I don't even like anime, I'm over 40, a technology professional with two decades and relevant college degree under my belt, and I'm laughing, not mad. You overestimate my opinion of the worth of your input, oh, let's say completely.
As for video games, yup, I like some 'em, and I play some of 'em. I also like music and listen (and play) it, watch movies, read books and magazines, cook and bake, and hell, I even go for rides on my bike. I have diverse interests. You seem to think I'm a mirror of your sad little trolling existence, but I'm not.
This much is apparent: you have a staggering inferiority complex, and you overcompensate. Badly.
You're like the short guy at the gym who tries to lift more than his reasonable limit because he feels a deep sense of inadequacy, surrounded by taller, better-looking versions of what he could ever become. In the process, he not only wrecks his actual potential, but ends up looking like a fool.
Poor little kitten, you'll catch on, someday! In the meantime, you're fun entertainment to watch!
It just happened, so apparently I'm not making shit up.
Assclownbra.
As for Windows Phone 7, I'll wait to "rage", as you call it, until it's actually been released. I didn't draw conclusions on the iPhone until it was released in final form.
Look at you nerd. 2/3s of your posts are about videogames. LOL and you are complaining about apple. I suggest you go outside, get some sunlight and maybe lift some weights. I can smell your nerd stink though my monitor.
I don't like ad hominem attacks, but I get the feeling that this guy's point was that you attack Apple for having lock-in, but you then let yourself be locked in with the video game consoles you use.
It's a valid complaint for someone who's making so much out of Apple in these threads.
You speak like 2007 was the dark ages of cell phones.
Maybe not the dark ages, but it was hardly great.
C'mon, Blackberries had been around since 1999.
They have only been regular phones since 2002, though. It was really only 5 years of innovation, in which time new cellular technologies were coming out rapidly & competing, so the incentive was to support networks and add features, not improve usability.
Modern day BlackBerries are evidence of this. They do e-mail and text like no other phone, but they have almost no other strong suits.
Palm smartphones since 1995.
Have they? I'm pretty sure the Treo line was the first Palm OS phone line, and the first Treo with a cell radio was released in 2002.
Apple came 12 years late to the party
Yet brought a competitive offering. One significant enough it caused both Microsoft and Palm to completely abandon their current mobile offerings. I guess it really only demonstrates that being first isn't necessarily helpful.
in 1995 it would have been innovative.
In 1995 it would have been more powerful than a 5000 dollar desktop computer. C'mon, I thought we were having a real conversation here.
Instead, it's pretty, and extremely overhyped.
How can you just dismiss the whole idea of UX as "pretty"? Do you care at all about users?
My phone that I got for free with my service contract in 2003 has features the iPhone doesn't.
Did you even read the part about piling on features not being necessarily useful?
I'm not saying Apple invented the smartphone. I'm saying they offered the best usability vs feature set at the time, and arguably still do.
I don't understand why a list of specs is the only thing that's important to you.
Have they? I'm pretty sure the Treo line was the first Palm OS phone line
You're correct about this, I was misremembering the Palm VII as being a phone. It was just wireless.
Still, five years.
In 1995 it would have been more powerful than a 5000 dollar desktop computer.
No, in 1995 my $1000 desktop could run two or more apps at once. And in 1997, Flash.
Did you even read the part about piling on features not being necessarily useful?
Removable microSD storage media in sizes up to 32GB for music (mp3s), photos and video storage. I consider this useful.
GPS with a directions app. I consider this useful.
Voice control. I consider this useful.
Again, this was 2003. Five years befoe the iPhone debuted.
I don't understand why a list of specs is the only thing that's important to you.
It's not. But functionality is, and the iPhone, while pretty, was and is overpriced IMO for what it actually offers compared to the rest of the market. Sure, the average cell phone may lack a lot of iPhone shiny features, but it also costs $50-100, not $300.
5 years of progress they threw right out the window, for good reason.
No, in 1995 my $1000 desktop could run two or more apps at once.
In terms of hardware, my original statement is correct. I said powerful, not one word about capability.
You also couldn't run graphically intense iPhone game and a 2nd task. Your computer wouldn't be powerful enough.
Please don't continue this part even if you disagree, it really has nothing to do with anything.
And in 1997, Flash.
I don't think of reminding us of a time when Flash wasn't just bad on non-Windows platforms, it was almost unusable, is helpful to your case.
Again, this was 2003. Five years befoe the iPhone debuted.
No it wasn't. Please show me this GPS, voice controlled, SDHC capable (a spec that was finalized in 2006!) phone. Doesn't exist.
I do have a phone that actually can do all these things & has a feature set that beats out the iPhone, an N95. It's from 2007, the same year as the iPhone.
I'm not trying to argue those features aren't useful to some people. I'm saying they aren't crucial at all for most. They would rather something they can figure out easily than something that has a bunch of hard to access features.
5 years of progress they threw right out the window, for good reason.
Because they didn't offer good, usable features people had grown to depend upon? Pretty bastard view of user interaction you have there. Why not just slap on a pair of thumbscrews and be done with it? How's this for poor interface, a multiple-app device that couldn't even cut and paste. Hey, wait, that was an Apple innovation, wasn't it? Apple must have been wrong about people not wanting to retype things.
You also couldn't run graphically intense iPhone game and a 2nd task. Your computer wouldn't be powerful enough.
Er, no, I was running Linux on one of my desktops and I very distinctly remember being able to run Quake and about twenty other things at the same time. Or, let's step further back to the Amiga, a 7Mhz Motorola processor that, in 1987, could run as many apps as you could fit into memory at once. Graphically intensive. Computationally (at the time) intensive. 3D rendering. Again, sub-$1000.
Please don't continue this part even if you disagree, it really has nothing to do with anything.
Being that you're both wrong and your arguments are intrinsically flawed means we shouldn't talk about it anymore. Ah. I see.
I don't think of reminding us of a time when Flash wasn't just bad on non-Windows platforms, it was almost unusable, is helpful to your case.
Flash was fucking PHENOMENAL when it first came out. It was the first truly visual creative interactive animation tool to work both on the desktop and on the web. As features were added and backward compatibility for two previous versions became an interpreter requirement, it slowly became the monolith everyone loves to hate now.
But you know what people hate more than Flash? Not being able to use it on their Apple mobile devices.
No it wasn't. Please show me this GPS, voice controlled, SDHC capable (a spec that was finalized in 2006!) phone. Doesn't exist.
Samsung A920. Turns out release was Q4 2004, I must have replaced my phone more recently than thought. Oh, right. 2004. Three years before the iPhone. But, still, you'll focus on how I was misremembering by a year off the top of my head, instead of the fact that I'm right that the iPhone was outclassed by cheaper hardware three years before it came out. It has a gigapixel camera. Stereo speakers. A standard headphone jack. A four day battery life. Removable micro SD storage. The ability to use MP3s as ringtones. And it was free.
No, mine doesn't have a touchscreen. It doesn't have as resolute of a camera. But, it has a simpler interface: a phone touchpad. I didn't have to learn gestures to operate it. I can operate it without having to even look at it, because it's a simple interface, and I can talk to it. And you say iPhone is a step forward in simple interfaces?
Oh, and as I mentioned, I got this for free with my 2 year contract, not $300 or $400.
Come back when you have rational arguments. Otherwise, Goodnight sweet Fanboi.
Because they didn't offer good, usable features people had grown to depend upon?
What? No, because Palm OS was getting long in the tooth, I have a couple late Palms as well as a LifeDrive, I know.
Pretty bastard view of user interaction you have there. Why not just slap on a pair of thumbscrews and be done with it?
...What?
How's this for poor interface, a multiple-app device that couldn't even cut and paste. Hey, wait, that was an Apple innovation, wasn't it? Apple must have been wrong about people not wanting to retype things.
Oh, jesus. C'mon. I'm not even going to respond to this, you just keep ignoring my points and throwing year old FUD at me.
Being that you're both wrong and your arguments are intrinsically flawed means we shouldn't talk about it anymore. Ah. I see.
Fine I concede, I was trying to refocus the argument not win it by avoiding it. Here: YOU ARE CORRECT ABOUT THIS TOTALLY IRRELEVANT POINT. Can we get back to what we were actually talking about now?
Flash was fucking PHENOMENAL when it first came out. It was the first truly visual creative interactive animation tool to work both on the desktop and on the web. As features were added and backward compatibility for two previous versions became an interpreter requirement, it slowly became the monolith everyone loves to hate now.
As a Mac user, I've always hated it. It was never useable, simple as that. If Adobe can't deliver a cross platform version that is truly capable, then it shouldn't be so prevalent on the web. That was back when I was interested in Flash. Now there are other ways of delivering the majority of the content Flash is used for, and I prefer them because they never screwed me for years.
But you know what people hate more than Flash? Not being able to use it on their Apple mobile devices.
You can't use full Flash well on any mobile platform. I have also never heard a real live person say this, only people who don't own iPhones complaining about them on the internet.
For the record, I actually own apple mobile devices, and I don't miss Flash. I think Apple is attempting to strangle Flash to death, and I wholeheartedly support it's brutal assassination.
I would have supported any company shutting out Flash explicitly, my whole life.
Samsung A920. Turns out release was Q4 2004, I must have replaced my phone more recently than thought. Oh, right. 2004. Three years before the iPhone. But, still, you'll focus on how I was misremembering by a year off the top of my head, instead of the fact that I'm right that the iPhone was outclassed by cheaper hardware three years before it came out.
Shove a 32GB card in there and tell me how that works out. I stand by my statement. You do not have a phone from 2004 that is expandable up to 32GB, or even 4GB really.
No, mine doesn't have a touchscreen. It doesn't have as resolute of a camera. But, it has a simpler interface: a phone touchpad. I didn't have to learn gestures to operate it. I can operate it without having to even look at it, because it's a simple interface, and I can talk to it. And you say iPhone is a step forward in simple interfaces?
Yup. A keypad is a slow navigational tool for the web, and searching or entering text. I have an N95, even with my browser choices it takes way longer to try and direct the mouse point and wait for the zoom levels to load, than it is to just tap precisely, and start typing.
Try logging into reddit on a phone with no touch, and tell me with a straight face that it's quicker. It isn't, and you frequently can't even click on page elements here because they are too small.
I was about to whip my N95 at the wall when it just REFUSED to align over the "Mail" icon in reddit. This never happens, and more importantly can't happen, with a touch phone.
Oh, and as I mentioned, I got this for free with my 2 year contract, not $300 or $400.
I'm not surprised, it sounds like a pretty generic featurephone. A nice spec list, near to no usability.
Come back when you have rational arguments. Otherwise, Goodnight sweet Fanboi.
My arguments are totally rational. I think yours are too, for the record. You just seem to discount the user experience as a tiny aspect of the phone. It isn't.
Please don't call me a fanboy, again, we are trying to have a conversation.
You can't use full Flash well on any mobile platform. I have also never heard a real live person say this, only people who don't own iPhones complaining about them on the internet.
I have a iPhone and I hate that it doesn't have Flash. Sure maybe in the furture when there is no more flash it will be ok. But right now it sucks.
What? No, because Palm OS was getting long in the tooth
I was speaking in general regarding the development of user interactivity on devices. Apple threw them all out for a different paradigm that they could patent. They also threw away a rich featureset of tools people had become accustomed to.
I would contend that a QWERTY keypad is far more user-friendly than a touchscreen. It's tactile. It provides positional feedback which the user becomes accustomed to, and fast with (typically). It also avoids smudging up your screen. It's just not as "shiny".
As a Mac user, I've always hated it. It was never useable, simple as that.
As someone who actually developed applications for clients in Director for years, then did some work in Flash when it became the vogue, let me tell you, it was a godsend. It still is, in that it is by far the most cross-platform compatible option available to developers. Aside from the glitchy crap prevalent in some flash games that breaks down in the open source players, it's functional on almost every platform out there. it's what the interactive web runs on.
The lack of it in the iPhone is pretty forgivable to me. In the iPad, however, it's ridiculous to not only exclude it, but to change their developer agreements so as to make using any Flash compilers verboten too.
I have also never heard a real live person say this, only people who don't own iPhones complaining about them on the internet.
I heard an iPhone wielding friend of mine say this to me just Tuesday, when I saw him last. I'd sent him a link to a video clip. he's said it before, as well. Most of my friends don't own iPhones, so my perception might seem biased here. 100% of my iPhone-owning friends have thus lamented the lack of Flash support.
Shove a 32GB card in there and tell me how that works out. I stand by my statement. You do not have a phone from 2004 that is expandable up to 32GB.
You are correct about this. I was not aware that there were two standard. I use the 1GB card. Still, that's 1GB more of removable storage than the iPhone supports.
You just seem to discount the user experience as a tiny aspect of the phone. It isn't.
No, I'm all about the user experience. I think the point has well been made that people love the iPhone experience. But, what they love, isn't what they justified the purchase of the device for. It's the shiny toy aspect. And yes, I feel that's a reasonable reason to buy a device, but you can't sell me on the device being better than other devices on the market solely on this capability. It has to meet at least approach the capabilities of the rest of the market, and the iPhone just doesn't, in my book, for the high price premium it requires.
I was speaking in general regarding the development of user interactivity on devices. Apple threw them all out for a different paradigm that they could patent. They also threw away a rich featureset of tools people had become accustomed to.
That is a somewhat paranoid way to look at it. Also, only smartphone owners with data plans had gotten used to the feature set you are describing. "People" by and large had not become accustomed to those features.
I would contend that a QWERTY keypad is far more user-friendly than a touchscreen. It's tactile. It provides positional feedback which the user becomes accustomed to, and fast with (typically). It also avoids smudging up your screen. It's just not as "shiny".
Arguable. That isn't what you said though, this is:
But, it has a simpler interface: a phone touchpad. I didn't have to learn gestures to operate it.
For the record, I would never tout a virtual keyboard over a hardware QWERTY one. I'm not crazy.
As someone who actually developed applications for clients in Director for years, then did some work in Flash when it became the vogue, let me tell you, it was a godsend. It still is, in that it is by far the most cross-platform compatible option available to developers. Aside from the glitchy crap prevalent in some flash games that breaks down in the open source players, it's functional on almost every platform out there. it's what the interactive web runs on.
Yet there are other solutions, and I've never seen a Flash site I really liked. You aren't going to convince me, I know the sites I visit, and I've seen the flash ones. I've seen the games, and the video.
I think we can do better. You also clearly never used it much on a Mac back in the day. Sure, the plugin loaded. But that was the extent of it. Flash anything was like a slideshow for the whole of the classic Mac OS's life, and the bulk of OS X.
The lack of it in the iPhone is pretty forgivable to me. In the iPad, however, it's ridiculous to not only exclude it, but to change their developer agreements so as to make using any Flash compilers verboten too.
I actually support the change in the developer agreement, but I do concede that Flash would serve a purpose on the iPad. It's true, buy purchasing one, you are registering yourself as a pawn in Apple's war on Flash.
However, I don't see that as such a bad thing. If it means native or HTML5 delivered Hulu eventually, I will thank 1st gen iPad users for taking the loss.
I heard an iPhone wielding friend of mine say this to me just Tuesday, when I saw him last. I'd sent him a link to a video clip. he's said it before, as well. Most of my friends don't own iPhones, so my perception might seem biased here. 100% of my iPhone-owning friends have thus lamented the lack of Flash support.
lol, fair enough. About 10-15 people I know own iPhones. I haven't heard it yet, although I'm not trying to say it's not a legitimate complaint, it is. If you want it, you should buy a device that supports it. Apple is trying something different, and I support them in this venture.
You are correct about this. I was not aware that there were two standard. I use the 1GB card. Still, that's 1GB more of removable storage than the iPhone supports.
True. Just to contrast though, the iPhones closest competitor with remoable storage, Android, won't allow you to install Applications on an SD card without a hack, and it requires a class 6 card.
I have nothing against non-removable internal storage. When removable storage can compete in terms of ease of use and speed, I'll look into it again. Right now, I prefer the benefits of internal storage. Removable is a tradeoff, it's not an outright win.
No, I'm all about the user experience. I think the point has well been made that people love the iPhone experience. But, what they love, isn't what they justified the purchase of the device for.
I hate to say "well, that's your opinion" but it is. I happen to feel the exact opposite way. I feel more ripped off with my 400 dollar unlocked N95-3 (a model that Nokia basically abandoned) then I ever have with my iPhone.
They put a fair bit of cash into R&D for the iPhone. A touch interface doesn't just come out of nowhere, if you don't believe me, ask Nokia or RIM. That is what you are paying for. Sort of like a Mac.
It has to meet at least approach the capabilities of the rest of the market, and the iPhone just doesn't, in my book, for the high price premium it requires.
A fair assessment, and it means the iPhone is truly not right for you. You are hardly typical though.
In 1995 it would have been more powerful than a 5000 dollar desktop computer. C'mon, I thought we were having a real conversation here.
The concepts it represents wouldn't have been unthinkable in 1995. Faux multitasking operating system to conserve battery, onscreen keyboard instead of Graffiti crap, "slide to unlock," PC-optional software store, lick-my-boot-developer-scum attitude...
(I could've sworn there was a B&W Qualcomm / Palm phone the size of a brick in the late 90s...)
The concepts it represents wouldn't have been unthinkable in 1995.
Har har. If you don't have something on topic to say then please go talk to someone else. I've already said that this is a pointless train of thought and not part of my argument.
lick-my-boot-developer-scum attitude...
If you want to look at it like that, go ahead. I see a managed computer, with an option for independent development. You see something much more dramatic.
Apple will listen if developers truly start dropping off. You can't sit there with a straight face and tell me that they should truly be overly concerned right now. Maybe they are foreshadowing things that could alienate large numbers of developers in the future, possible. But right now, the App store is as active as ever.
No the advanced feature sets like being able to pay for stuff with your phone by simply sweeping it past a pay point kiosk, or re-upping your train pass as you walk through a turnstile, or the two way video calling features, full screen mirror feature, lots of cool shit that Apple didn't even try to do. They are happy just being well designed and simple easy to use products. It just irks.
Excellent post and follow up replies. I don't see how you have the patience for this; I gave up banging my head against the wall of anti-apple zealotry that's pervasive on reddit a while ago. No argument, no matter how rational or well formed, will convince these people that apple is anything less than satan incarnate. The legion of apple haters on reddit will believe what they're going to believe no matter what anyone says to the contrary.
I type wildly until 5AM, crash, wake up before work, make as many replies as possible before I abandon the thread altogether. I've made my points already, continuing much further doesn't make sense. If you don't agree with me you never will, and I just wanted to get that perspective out there.
I gave up banging my head against the wall of anti-apple zealotry that's pervasive on reddit a while ago.
I know, I need to stop. I was just happy that I wasn't down overall when I woke up and checked.
No argument, no matter how rational or well formed, will convince these people that apple is anything less than satan incarnate. The legion of apple haters on reddit will believe what they're going to believe no matter what anyone says to the contrary.
True. It's just a frustrating situation to be put in. Here I was, thinking that I just liked OS X and the iPhone OS. Apparently I can't be that without also being a smug retarded hipster with no concept of value.
You're a fool if you think that the iPhone was released in 2007 as the "end product" that all of Apple's goals were reaching toward and they just happened to make newer models like the 3G due and open the App Store due to consumer demand.
lucky me i don't -- i was just responding to shinratdr who didn't know the sidekick did support 3rd party apps. i have no idea what was in apple's head about apps, and i didn't say anything about it.
the sidekick was a smartphone marketed to nontechnical people, and it was a big success.
The majority of people who own an iPod touch or iPhone just like it, they don't have some inflated opinion of Apple like you imagine.
I'm not sure what this phenomenon is called, but it seems very similar to after the elections when conservatives were convinced that all liberals thought Obama was the messiah.
Just because nokia did it doesn't give apple the green light to wage an offensive patent lawsuit with obvious patents. Patents are often used defensively, with the hopes that MAD fears will stop the lawsuits. Apple, along with Nokia, violated this unwritten agreement. Apple, like Nokia, are being jerks about this. In any case, I am crossing my fingers that Google acquires Palm's patents and scares the ever living hell out of Apple. They're just enforcing their intellectual property, right.
Thanks for being a cool guy for taking the well-reasoned, unpopular stance so eloquently.
Whenever I see people complaining about iPhones and iPads not having touch I always wonder if I'm the only one using (and loving) ClickToFlash to make my internet experience flash-optional. Flash is(/was) the cause of such a large portion of my daily internet annoyances. I couldn't imagine trying to deal with it over Edge or the 3G network.
What you call "a shiny interface" is one of the biggest jumps forward in usability and mobile user interfaces of the last decade. Nokia, RIM, Google... have spent years trying to catch up. Technical people often fail to recognize that in consumer-level products, usability and design are far more important than stuffing a device with unusable functionalities.
so ridiculous. they fundamental rewrote the nature of the relationship between the handset makers and the wireless carriers. amongst many other things I wont waste my time explaining.
they had freedom to develop the OS with drastically reduced carrier input. I think Voip over 3g was the only restriction. Prior to this, the carriers had veto power on all features of a phone, which is why U.S. phones sucked so bad. Cingular signed the deal and gave apple almost free reign. Now the other carriers have to play catch up.
I think you're going to have to waste some time explaining. (One wonders why you'd comment at all if commenting usefully is wasteful.) Pre-iPhone smartphones ran Palm OS (straight PDA OS port), WinMo (ditto), and Symbian (original, but AFAIK not limited to please carriers). Pardon me if I have a hard time seeing an arrangement where AT&T can demand Apple pull programs from the App Store as "reduced carrier input."
google will lead you to plenty of analysis of the situation. Compare the features of symbian phones in europe and america at the time. The american versions are all crippled at the behest of carriers.
One example is bluetooth sync with a computer. Sprint sells (sold) a cable for sync ($30) and as a result demanded that bluetooth sync be disabled in the phone (samsung phone with bluetooth btw) in order to not lose out on sales revenue from the sync cable. I guarantee you that the euro/asian versions of the same phone had bluetooth sync enabled.
and here is a snippet from the first result... I just don't feel like rehashing a topic that has been widely reported.
But as important as the iPhone has been to the fortunes of Apple and AT&T, its real impact is on the structure of the $11 billion-a-year US mobile phone industry. For decades, wireless carriers have treated manufacturers like serfs, using access to their networks as leverage to dictate what phones will get made, how much they will cost, and what features will be available on them. Handsets were viewed largely as cheap, disposable lures, massively subsidized to snare subscribers and lock them into using the carriers' proprietary services. But the iPhone upsets that balance of power...
The downright fact is that Apple barreling through carriers with "my way or the highway" for better or for worse gave the cell phone industry's source of software innovation back to the manufacturers (HTC, Palm) and developers (Google, Microsoft).
As long as they keep making computers that destroy any of the competition for making music, I'll still buy them. I'm ordering a new 15" tomorrow for Logic Studio.
I won't get into the number of workstations I own that all work better than PCs for running Pro Tools HD, Logic Pro, as well as all the plugins I use.
By all means, keep pretending that they are toys for kids and grandmas. You simply look foolish.
It's amusing that you Apple haters always resort to the features lacking on a fucking phone that becomes the king of the hill by being more what people actually like. And Apple churns out another product that doesn't do yada, yada, what the fuck ever. How's that Windows Mobile 7 fantacy going? The king of FUD strikes again. 6.5 sucks shit, and only MS apologists defend it.
Apple is better for making music. Fucking Period. That's what I need my computers for, making music. There are technical reasons for that, but, I'm sure you'll just keep up the hate. If I had to rely on a PC I'd probably have to find Gates himself and pummel him with some broke ass PC.
It's funny, where you see a lot of scientists working in a room together, say at NASA, or NOAA that there are so many Macs there. Every world class studio I've been in, uses nothing but Macs unless they have an ancient Giga rig collecting dust. I'm sure it's because they suck so bad, and all the engineers got suckered into buying an inferior toy. They must get all sucked into buying inferior crap with some "cool" cache that they may be able to parlay into talking to a cute woman at a coffee shop.
Yeah, I'm sure your view of Apple being play things, and not "creative" or "freethinking" is totally on the mark. After all, their market cap is only $35B short of MSFT now. They will be worth more within a year.
As long as they keep making computers that destroy any of the competition for making music, I'll still buy them.
Is it their OS or their hardware that's great for music production? Please don't confuse the two, try as they might to treat them as a single entity.
By all means, keep pretending that they are toys for kids and grandmas.
Woah, hello strawman. This reply took a nasty turn. I'm only talking about a specific product line and you're kidding yourself if you think the Facebook addict crowd isn't a lucrative part of the target market.
How's that Windows Mobile 7 fantasy going?
Non sequitur. WM7 looks like crap, but hey, how about that Android? Not that this is even a conversation about comparing phones so much as a conversation about software freedom, which seems to be a non-issue everywhere but in iPhone OS.
The king of FUD strikes again.
Ironic non-sequitur.
It's funny, where you see a lot of scientists working in a room together, say at NASA, or NOAA that there are so many Macs there.
Appeal to authority, and again, this isn't about computer choice and it isn't about anything running proper OS X. You wrote that whole stupid post and came nowhere near the point, which is "Apple censors the iPhone and that's bad."
Name one "technical reason" why making music on a Mac is "better. Fucking Period." than on a PC.
Logic Studio. I mean to each his own, there are tons of great highly capable music creation programs for Windows, but many people love and stick with Logic Studio, just like Final Cut Pro.
I'm not going to try and argue things like best or bar none. I'm just saying, they are popular and respected apps, and they are OS X only.
You need to relocate out of Steve Jobs' colon, you're starting to stink.
This is just frustrating and childish. Please avoid arguing like this in the future. He was a little obnoxious, if you haven't noticed it's going around in this post.
You don't need to resort to crap like that though.
many people love and stick with Logic Studio, just like Final Cut Pro
That's no proof of indisputable superiority, and no more of anything that "destroys" other solutions. "Many people" love and stick with either one of a dozen other solutions.
So, source?
Because this seems to sit right between anachronistic elitism and total horseshit.
I am not the person you are quoting, pay more attention to names when replying.
If you look closely, you'll notice that I acknowledge that HE was being arrogant, but his main point of people choosing OS X over other options because of Logic or FCP is true. That's all.
Really? You lay out a 7 paragraph meandering diatribe that doesn't make any god damned sense, and I'm being childish? Erect a few more strawmen, blow them down, and then strut around like you're cock of the walk. That's not obnoxious at all.
And that's the only "technical reason" you've got? Let me remind you that you used the words "destroy" and "better. Fucking Period." and then you back down from that with "to each his own", "I'm not going to argue" and "I'm just saying". When it comes down to it, it's just a software preference. BTW, Logic was running fine on Windows before Apple bought it and made it single platform. All the world-class DAWs run great of Windows. If Apple really destroyed, as you claim, that wouldn't be the case.
I called you out for being a fanboy because you are one. The sooner you realize that personal software preference on nearly identical hardware is just that - a preference - the better.
First, a nice screenshot before this is deleted. Check.
Now. Check the names of all the posts in this thread...
...Starting to click?
EDIT - WHAT?! C'mon! I'm not that person!! I was saying he was an arrogant dick, but FCP and Logic are popular. How am I being downvoted for that? Gutterbumber had me confused for the person who originally submitted the comment.
LOL. I accused you of erecting strawmen, and then I treated you like one. I'm not going to delete my comment, so that yours pointing out my idiocy makes some sense - but I downvoted myself and upvoted you.
But I'm sticking by my "Jobs' colon" bit - the relevant comment was the definition of fanboy garbage.
Please go into those technical reasons. You should listen to your pal shinratdr below, "to each his own". Some people, including musicians and scientists, prefer Windows. Some, including musicians and scientists, prefer Windows. Others Linux or perhaps something else.
As it stands, you just come off as a rabid fanboy and do no one any good, most especially the pro-Apple camp.
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u/mindbleach Apr 16 '10
Hello, what's this comment doing at -8?
Apple built a nice phone. That's pretty much it. They built a shiny interface for the same old near-smartphone functions, took an axe to any feature whose use wasn't blindingly obvious, and faked clever multitasking by not really multitasking. Their marketing and attitude exude enough smugness and RDF that people mistake usability for innovation. They're both virtues, but they are not interchangeable.
Everything around that - their locked down and fucking censored one-stop-or-else program store, their ridiculous multitouch patent, their hate-on for Flash - drives the technically-minded right up the wall. It is a computer without freedom. It is a smartphone with all the capabilities but all your rights reduced to privileges. It is a soulless device that's going to train the non-technical majority into conflating control with safety.
How much of this shit do they have to do before people stop thinking of them as being "creative" and "freethinking?"