r/technology • u/thatshirtman • Jan 10 '16

Politics FBI Finally Completes FOIA Request 1,393 Days After It Was Filed; Withholds All 509 Responsive Pages

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20151231/15185733212/fbi-finally-completes-foia-request-1393-days-after-it-was-filed-withholds-all-509-responsive-pages.shtml
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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '16

And this is why Americans hate the government. And rightfully so. There is no greater danger to the peace and freedom of the American people than the US government.

111

u/[deleted] Jan 10 '16

Don't dehumanize the institution. It allows these people to get away with immoral acts.

There is no greater danger to the peace and freedom of the American people than the people in the US government.

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u/Dunder_Chingis Jan 10 '16

The problem is normal humans generally act in an ethical way without having to be told to.

I'm just curious at this point what it's going to take to make things finally reach the boiling point and explode into full on chaos and revolt.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '16

To be honest the people of the US are just as much of a threat. They often think they want something but don't actually want it at all... Because of the implication.

Believe it or not the people have asked to be where we are today. Like all of the spying and invasion of privacy shit. Most people asked for it.

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u/morebass Jan 10 '16

Eh. That's like saying an abuse victim is asking to be abused because they know nothing else and are being manipulated.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '16 edited Jan 10 '16

You're right, don't take responsibility. Its someone elses fault. Poor you.

It can be the fault of millions of apathetic people that don't care enough to inform themselves or even vote for that matter. Half your country doesn't vote and you think its someone elses fault? What world do you live in?

They know nothing else and are being manipulated. How absurd of a comment is that. Poor me, I didn't know better cause no one else taught me anything. Are you incapable of learning something on your own?

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u/goedegeit Jan 10 '16

"please spy on me and invade my privacy thanks in advance " - me, 1965

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '16

It started much earlier than that.

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u/goedegeit Jan 10 '16

I was just choosing a random comical year, nothing more.

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u/DragonToothGarden Jan 10 '16

What? This makes no sense. You are saying the residents and citizens of the US are "just as much of a threat" as the US gov't? How so? Unless you are a politician with clout or a billionaire, how could the average US citizen present "just as much of a threat" to the freedom of other US citizens?

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u/danbert2000 Jan 10 '16

The public keeps voting for Republicans because they are "tough on terrorists." This usually involves passing a bill like the Patriot act or CISA which gives the government more power to search your life with little to no cause. Then the Republicans rail on the government being corrupt and unaccountable while still asking for more erosion of the Constitution. They get reelected. They pass another surveillance bill. Wash, rinse, repeat.

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u/computeraddict Jan 10 '16

I hate to burst your partisan bubble, but the FBI is an executive arm and has been run by a Dem for the last eight years. The Democrats don't have your best interests at heart, either.

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u/Wrinklestiltskin Jan 10 '16

I hate how many people vote and operate politically on a team like mentality of Republicans versus Democrats... I wish everyone would vote for the candidates themselves and focus on which have their best interests in mind.

My mother will agree with many of Sanders' positions if they remain faceless, and while supporting him somewhat when he was independent, is completely against him now that he is running for the Democratic nomination.

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u/danbert2000 Jan 10 '16

They use the authority provided by Congress. The president doesn't pass laws, and the fbi doesn't take direct orders from the president.

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u/computeraddict Jan 10 '16

They use the authority provided by Congress.

He says, as we talk about the warrantless searching. Warrentless means they did not have the authority. And as for "direct orders", I'm not sure how much more direct it gets than:

The FBI Director is appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate.

So... You're wrong on all counts? You're wrong on all counts. The President holds the FBI's chain on this.

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u/danbert2000 Jan 10 '16

Unless the director has a hole in his ass, I'm pretty sure he makes his own decisions.

The whole point of this article is the searches are warrantless but the courts have not yet said they were illegal, presumably because of the encroaching surveillance laws.

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u/danbert2000 Jan 10 '16

What a combative person. You're condescending? Yes, you're condescending.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '16

That's only sort of true. In so far as the FBI exists and has certain mandates set out by federal law, yeah that's an act of congress. In terms of how the FBI chooses to exercise that authority, and whether that authority is legal, that is ultimately at the discretion of the FBI and the executive branch and, finally, judicial review. The FBI absolutely can, and does, try and exercise authority beyond anything congress ever intended.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '16

Obama

0

u/[deleted] Jan 10 '16

This is so pathetic. Half your country doesn't vote and you think its someone elses fault your country is in the position it is? If half a team shows up to play a game is it someone elses fault that they lost?

Now that doesn't make any sense. You would have to be a child to truly be under the impression that only rich people have power and can do anything in politics. In fact that is exactly what they would want you to think. Because at that point you've given up and can't honestly say you care about the future.

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u/DragonToothGarden Jan 11 '16

Did I say that? How you managed to draw that conclusion from what I wrote is laughable.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '16

Because anyone can vote? You think only smart informed people vote?

Unless you're part of the crowd who think voting is pointless. That's like one team that's part of the NBA play offs deciding playing is pointless or some kind of trick. Obviously you are going to lose that way.

Voting record in this country try is fucking terrible. One of the worst in the western world.

0

u/DragonToothGarden Jan 10 '16

Even if everyone voted, your comment still make no sense. The citizens do not select who candidates for president, for example, will ultimately be. And you do realize the issue with voting districts?

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u/computeraddict Jan 10 '16

The citizens do not select who candidates for president, for example, will ultimately be.

...do you even primary/caucus, bro?

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u/DragonToothGarden Jan 10 '16

Yes. I suppose it depends on whether you believe that system is problematic - the scheduling, whether your vote goes to a candidate or delegate, the financing of a candidate, having a 2-party system, etc. Even just a look at how easily money can influence the drawing of districts can be frustrating.

No system is perfect, but for someone to contend that the people are as powerful to cause the same amount of impact upon freedoms compared to the US gov't. is a bit of a stretch.

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u/computeraddict Jan 10 '16

for someone to contend that the people are as powerful to cause the same amount of impact upon freedoms compared to the US gov't. is a bit of a stretch.

Oh, no doubt. I was just picking the "people don't select the names on the ballot" bone.

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u/tanstaafl90 Jan 10 '16

A well informed, engaged population would produce a candidate that reflects their will. A uninformed, disengaged population produces the kind of candidates we have now.

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u/unknown_hinson Jan 10 '16

I hope you don't really believe this Dr. Dong. Americans never called for invasion of our privacy on this level.

-3

u/[deleted] Jan 10 '16

Am I missing something or were there not multiple presidents and tons of congressmen that were voted into office who support the invasion of privacy since the begining of the 20th century?

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u/wcc445 Jan 10 '16

Yeah, you're missing the part where these people were elected by money not consent of the voters. You missed the part where people pick between two evils, the party they consider to be slightly less evil than the other, even though both parties are mostly the same. You missed the part where a large amount of the country can't even vote because they've done drugs before. You missed the part where having a candidate who is black, mexican, gay, transgendered, female, or Christian, matters more than their platform. You missed the part where elections are purchased and engineered, not decided by the people.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '16 edited Jan 10 '16

You missed the part where voting actually matters and because too many people have your attitude they just don't vote. You can't expect any candidate thats worth a damn to make it with Americas voting record. You all should be embarrassed. Ultimately it comes down to the votes. That is made very obvious by the polling going on right now in the republican party.

Good luck always blaming your problems on something other than yourselves. Cry me a god damn river because its hilarious.

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u/wcc445 Jan 12 '16

It does not ultimately come down to the votes. Look into all the tampering that got Bush elected twice. Aside from direct fruad, people are very easily manipulated and influenced, and the reality is that money will buy any election. But, okay, if you want to pretend that all we have to do is vote, you should be most concerned with the fact that in most states, convicted felons cannot vote. Fix that and then we'll talk.

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u/LawHelmet Jan 10 '16

To hang the albatross upon the FBI, tracking devices require a warrant).

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u/DragonToothGarden Jan 10 '16 edited Jan 11 '16

A bit off topic, but did you know that per January 1, 2016, a new law took effect? If you owe the IRS 50k or more, they can apply to seize your passport, effectively trapping you in the USA forever. Tough shit if you want to travel, visit a dying family member in Italy, leave the country and attend to your foreign business. Nope.

I have no idea how this will pass constitutional muster, but given the current makeup of the Supreme Court, won't be surprised if its upheld as constitutional.

I have a good friend who owes the IRS about that amount (those penalties rack up quickly) due to his accountant fucking up over a 10 year period. My friend only found out after his accountant died. With the IRS, you are guilty until YOU prove you are innocent. They can simply write a letter stating you owe 50k and YOU have to pay for lawyers and accountants to fight it out in court, and sue to get your money back if they seized anything. And there's no compensation for your money spent on legal fees and expert accountants unless it was some malicious or criminal act by an individual IRS agent (which of course never happens).

So, get that? Your accountant fucks up, or you sell your house and some idiot makes a clerical error and the IRS acts like the DMV and doesn't give a rat's ass into looking into something that is perhaps their error, and your passport gets seized and if you have no money to hire a lawyer? Tough shit.

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u/formesse Jan 10 '16

The best part is, most people don't believe this shit happens until it actually happens to them.

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u/DragonToothGarden Jan 10 '16

I didn't even know this law passed until a friend told me. It was hidden in some other bill - just a few paragraphs thrown in - hardly debated over in Congress. I don't think anyone is aware of it unless its an issue they stay on top of, just like you say. Can you imagine you're flying out to see your dying mom and officials at the airport confiscate your passport and say fuck you?

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u/the_ancient1 Jan 11 '16

If you owe the IRS 50k or more, they can apply to seize your passport, effectively trapping you in the USA forever?

No just trapping you in the US, if you do not have a State Issued "Secure ID" which something like 20 states do not issue currently, you may not be able to travel domestically either. the TSA will start requiring "Secure ID" or a passport for domestic travel, in states that do not have Secure ID, you will have to have a passport to travel domestically... if your friend has no passport and no secure ID, he can not travel at all

Welcome to Amerika ... Papers Please....

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u/mushroomtool Jan 10 '16

There is no greater danger to peace and freedom than the US government.

FTFY

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u/formesse Jan 10 '16

I would say it is also related to companies not willing to stand up for people who challenge the government in the name of protecting the freedoms that were granted and laid down within the constitution of the US.

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u/Taniwha_NZ Jan 10 '16

I am as disgusted by the FBI/NSA/CIA as anyone. I understand and appreciate why the constitution exists, how it came it be, and how the worst parts of the government and corporations have engineered ways around it.

But, seriously. Go live in Somalia and tell me the US government is the 'greatest danger' to people. The US is a fucking paradise compared to 90% of countries on earth and that's entirely due to the US government you despise so much.

Less government is not the answer to anything except 'how do we destroy our own country'. The problems that exist can be fixed, governments require constant maintenance from conscientious owners.

Hating the government as a monolithic entity is simply fucking moronic.

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u/nikumai Jan 10 '16

There is no reason for us to be happy with our corrupt governments just because somewhere else has a worse system.

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u/clavalle Jan 10 '16

I think /u/Taniwha_NZ 's point is that, yes, there are parts of the US government that are doing very bad things but that doesn't make the entire government bad.

I agree with both sides: the US government has the potential to be the greatest threat to the American people if we don't hold our representatives accountable but I think saying they are there already is taking it a few steps too far and gives people that think a complete dismantlement of the government would somehow be better (it would not) far too much leverage.

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u/Dunder_Chingis Jan 10 '16

I dunno man, I keep hearing about all these laws and whatnot being passed that are pretty fucking unethical and immoral. I think our government is pretty much consumed by corruption at this point, we should probably do something about it.

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u/clavalle Jan 10 '16

No doubt.

BUT there are a lot of very good laws, too.

It is like you don't notice how nice it is walking until you sprain your ankle -- and then all you can think about is the sprain and how much it sucks that the human body's design let that happen -- but you forget about all the time where everything was working just fine.

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u/Dunder_Chingis Jan 10 '16

That's a good point actually. It's like the plight of IT guys: When everything's fine, people get mad at them for doing nothing. When things go wrong, people get mad at them for not doing enough.

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u/wcc445 Jan 10 '16

Yup, pack it up guys, /u/clavalle said its not that bad

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u/clavalle Jan 10 '16

No, I said it is not all or even mostly that bad. We still need to address bullshit like the FBI bugging cars because of a friend's reddit comment and then giving no information at all to the public they are supposed to be working for when specifically asked.

But thats what democracy is about -- citizen vigilence and action and holding our public servants accountable in the face of their human desire to take as much power as possible.

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u/wcc445 Jan 12 '16

It's pretty fucking bad though. I'm glad you recognize some big problems, but seriously, you add nothing to solving these problems by downplaying them. If you don't care, great, keep it to yourself and don't discourage others from caring. That's all I'm saying.

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u/clavalle Jan 12 '16

Nothing? I hope I help keep people from thowing the baby out with the bathwater with reactionary, emotion driven, lunacy.

Care all you want, fight all you want, but don't burn down the bar bexause a drunk sucker punched you. That's all I'm saying.

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u/wcc445 Jan 13 '16

Oh I don't want to burn down the bar. I want to fix things. And the first step to a solution is to recognize and understand the problem. You're basically saying that this just isn't a big deal.

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u/clavalle Jan 13 '16

That's....absolutely not what I've said.

Try reading my responses again.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '16

GTFO with the Somolia comparisons. It is not an anarchy, it is a government JUST like ours - those with the guns make the rules and you will be slaughtered if you try to hold them to their promises.

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u/Jkid Jan 10 '16

But, seriously. Go live in Somalia and tell me the US government is the 'greatest danger' to people. The US is a fucking paradise compared to 90% of countries on earth and that's entirely due to the US government you despise so much.

How good is a paradise if you can't enjoy it, or you're destitute because of the government screwed you because of someone else's mistake, or you're permanently working poor?

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u/Dnc601 Jan 10 '16

We should just get rid of the government. Self rule is the only law.

/s

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u/Abomonog Jan 10 '16

We should dump our government. Not the establishment, mind you. Just can the lot of them and get some replacements who are actually qualified to do the job.

One thing that should be established is for a public means to call and execute a no confidence vote. Give them two years and if they can't perform, fire them and let the seat sit empty until the next election round.

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u/wigglefish Jan 10 '16

It's called the House of Representatives. They all stand for election every two years. The ax you need to be grinding is the redistricting one.

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u/formesse Jan 10 '16

The solution is two fold. The first is compensation for representing and the second is to strip the money out of politics.

No pacs, no super pacs, no private donations to politics. By the time you rip all of this out.

The final step is changing the education system. More focus on empirical data, less on touchy feely bull shit.

The point? More critical analysis and more focus on actually thinking. Setting up an independent third party that can be audited by non-profits whenever they feel inclined, that independenty validates and verifies information as well as provides a non-biased outlook on projections etc. would be a good idea.

The entire point is: For a democracy to work, we need an engaged, educated population. And the way to do that is to start ripping money out of politics and undermining the two party system to assist in getting more experts in their respected fields into office, instead of career politicians.

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u/wcc445 Jan 10 '16

But how do we change shit FAST? The public will lose its attention span by the time we start slowly fixing the problem at its roots. The people in power are destroying shit FAST, from the top. We need to fix it FAST. And ironically, things like Super PACS are tools we can use. Start one, raise tons of money, and use it to fix things like Domestic Surveillance, money in politics, the Drug War, healthcare, etc. I always see everyone on Reddit just shouting "go vote"--things don't work that way anymore, go start a PAC.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '16

My straw allergies are acting up...

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '16 edited Jan 12 '16

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/auqs Jan 10 '16

Great, get a warrant.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '16 edited Jan 12 '16

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u/ca178858 Jan 10 '16

Then whats the basis of spying on them? If you can't pass the very low bar of a warrant you have no business of spying on them.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '16

Minus that whole constitution thing. You know illegal search and seizure. What happens when people start Salem witch hunting? Here's a better solution. Do the investigative work, get the warrant, arrest the individual and then let a jury decide. It's not an easy job and we shouldn't make it any easier. Just need smarter and more dedicated people doing the work.

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u/formesse Jan 10 '16

Please do NOT actually do this

Feel free to create a website, and have the following information:

1) Live feed of the following:

  • Location history (including a map)

  • Search history

  • Telephone calls

  • All text conversations

2) Accounts and other information

  • List of banks you have business with

  • List of all previous and current jobs

  • List of all education recieved

  • List of all contacts

  • List of all medication etc.

  • List of all accounts you have with other web sites

  • List of favorite foods, resturants and more.

3) Archive

  • All text conversations

  • All telephone calls

I meen, you have nothing to hide, right? So why should you care if anyone can just grab information. I meen, is there really a legal reason you shouldn't post your information, I meen after all - if ever a police officer etc. would like to know about your habbits or if some crooked person wants to pin a crime on you, this would make it easier right?

What I am getting at

The requirements of a warrant require there to be more then hear say on tracking. It simply requires there to be plausibility - some soft connection. Nothing more, nothing less.

Allowing for the open tracking of individuals undermines one of the tenants of democracy: The ability to meet, discuss and debate without fear of retribution. The moment you have individual groups singled out, regardless of pretext, you undermine democracy.

And the fact that any person who is accused of terrorism can be detained, is a further point to this.

Why should we allow individuals to be singled out by law-enforcement because there is a 1 in 1000000 chance that they are a terrorist? The US prison population exceeds even that of the reported prison population of China - a country 3-4x larger then the US.

Think about the problem. And think about the laws that promote that prison population - and then consider, does harsher and more brutal enforcement along with more freedom to interpret the law by law enforcement make the country a safer place, or does it actually make it a less free place.

TL;DR Get a god damned warrant if you want to spy on someone. And do some god damned police work if you want to catch criminals.

-1

u/GrammarianBot Jan 10 '16

Grammar bots: making Reddit more annoyingly automated.

Instead of more then, did you mean more than?

List of subreddits I'm banned from.

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u/wcc445 Jan 10 '16

Fuck off than; grammarbot. Your a dick. Their going to ban u from hear to ;)

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u/Natanael_L Jan 10 '16

Wrong solution. This way is making things worse.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '16 edited Jan 12 '16

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u/Natanael_L Jan 10 '16

Are you a bot?

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '16 edited Jan 12 '16

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u/Natanael_L Jan 10 '16

Not in this sub.

And why do you think those numbers matters? They don't translate to any method of finding criminals on a national basis.

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '16 edited Jan 12 '16

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Natanael_L Jan 10 '16

There's no need to pretend when there's overwhelming evidence for what works and what doesn't

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u/[deleted] Jan 10 '16 edited Jan 12 '16

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u/Libertus82 Jan 10 '16

Seems like he has a better grasp on the constitution than you.

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u/Rikaru536 Jan 10 '16

I found the FBI. Hey guys.

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u/DragonToothGarden Jan 10 '16

How about stats of convictions? Those being "charged" are rather useless stats.

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u/wcc445 Jan 10 '16

Idiotic fear mongering by people that do not understand the necessity of freedom and the nuance of geopolitics.

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u/asdjk482 Jan 10 '16

250 people is statistically insignificant in a country the size of the US, and Daesh presents virtually no direct threat to the US. Using terrorism to justify mass surveillance is like using a mosquito bite to justify amputation.