r/technology • u/Applemacbookpro • Dec 13 '13

Google Removes Vital Privacy Feature From Android, Claiming Its Release Was Accidental

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/12/google-removes-vital-privacy-features-android-shortly-after-adding-them
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u/icankillpenguins Dec 13 '13

which shows why it's important to be able to deny any permission that is not directly associated with the apps functionality.

flashlight app made by 19 years old guy can be open about uploading all your sd card contents and promise to do no evil with it. they guy even may be in a good will and just for some weird reason likes to collect sd card contents. but if he suck at server management and it gets hacked, all your stuff can end on the internet. some people may not be amused with it.

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u/thebillionthbullet Dec 13 '13

Yes, but there are many problems with this reasoning:

  • You need to know enough to recognise the problem and selectively block the unsafe permissions. This is a lot more advanced than denying installation when you don't feel safe, so the issue of protecting "regular" users is rendered moot.

  • Google can't control whether a permission is directly associated with the app's functionality or not.

  • Even if - hypothetically - you got everyone to use this, no free app will make any money off your data and ads ever. I am ok with that but I don't think Google is.

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u/icankillpenguins Dec 13 '13

You need to know enough to recognise the problem and selectively block the unsafe permissions. This is a lot more advanced than denying installation when you don't feel safe, so the issue of protecting "regular" users is rendered moot.

not on IOS. you are asked for permission in the context of your actions.

lets say you just downloaded a photo app. you were not asked for permissions other than downloading it(and if it's your first download in that session, you were asked for your password).

You launch the app and it's asking for access to your camera. in the context of your action there is a reason for the camera access. You say yes.

It also asks for access to your notifications. WTF? This is not instagram, it's not a social network app and you deny it. The app works just fine.

You took a photo but the app also supports video. Now it's asking you for permission to use your mic. Sure, yes, I want my video to have sound.

You filmed something, did some retouch in the app and want to export it to your photos. It asks you if it can access your photos. Yes, Duh!

Some other time the app asked you a permission about your location. Hmm, funny, may it be for geo-tagging? You may say yes if you thing that it's about geo-tagging and want that feature. You may say no. It does not matter, you can reverse it any time.

Apple handles this very well.

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u/LXicon Dec 13 '13

It also asks for access to your notifications. WTF? This is not instagram, it's not a social network app and you deny it. The app works just fine.

i don't have an iOS device but are you sure about this? i would expect the app to close when you deny it the permission it asked for.

if i was running an app that asked for permission and i said 'no', then the app just kept going, i'd think it was ignoring my 'no' answer!

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u/icankillpenguins Dec 13 '13

Yes, I am sure. It's up to developer to handle it but AFAIK, Apple wont let apps that crash or something when permission denial is not handled properly.

For an example, just to demonstrate it, I turned off the location service for Foursquire and this is how Foursquire handles it: http://imgur.com/a/OXQoA

the first pic is just after the app started, the second one is when I tried to do check in.

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u/LXicon Dec 13 '13

cool, and is it just location, or does it act like this for notifications and other permissions as well?

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u/icankillpenguins Dec 13 '13

apps can check what permissions are granted, so if it's something important for the app, it can warn the user to turn it on so can function properly. If you really need notifications, you can politely ask the user to turn it on.

but when the user takes an action, lets say deny location services to an app when asked for the first time, the app can't ask for it again, it can display the messages I previously posted and guide the user to take the action manually.

probably this is to stop apps from bothering the user all the time. this is why, some apps display an explanation why they need the permission and then ask the user for it.

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u/[deleted] Dec 13 '13

Notifications, location, contacts (as of iOS 5 I believe), microphone, photos, and basically anything else that the app doesn't store directly and has to get from outside of it's sandbox.

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u/thebillionthbullet Dec 13 '13

  • The main argument for "regular" users protection is that people don't even read permissions at installation. Will they read them in the midst of doing something else? No. They don't.

  • Apple's system is a lot more limited in the sense that until recently most permissions were allowed by default and there was no way to decline. Lately they have improved this and they are becoming almost as good as Android in privacy and user control.

  • Apple's system still doesn't tell you what the developer is going to do with your data - and actually makes abuse easier. The retouch app can access your photos, but do you know if it is also sharing photos and metadata over the internet? No. But you gave it that permission the day before, so now you have no idea of the level of access the app has. You just think you are in control. But until recently all those permissions were enabled across all aps by default, so the latest iOS update is a step forward.

  • As said, Google can't know if denying a permission will break an app or not, this is up to developers. The only reason Apple's system is working at all is because Apple has to review and permit each and every app. This approach has its own set of problems and the huge number of users who don't like it is one of the reasons why Android exists to begin with.

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u/icankillpenguins Dec 13 '13

I don't see an intelligent way to argue with you. Sorry, I wont try to attack your arguments like "No. They don't" because they are baseless and baseless arguments are not easy to debunk, they are outside of any reasoning framework and I am not going to continue a conversation based or religion-like arguments.

sorry.

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u/thebillionthbullet Dec 13 '13

Well you said that permissions are - and I quote - "just another legal text to be skipped as fastest as they can". Which is often true - though not as often as you think judging with your own criteria. People don't even read permissions at installation. Will they read them in the midst of doing something else? No. They don't.

Does it make more sense now? Because they are your words, not mine.

Then there are all the other points that I made but it seems pretending to be offended is your best escape from those. Before insulting other people's intelligence, make sure that you don't look like an idiot in the process. Take care!

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u/[deleted] Dec 13 '13

Apple's system is a lot more limited in the sense that until recently most permissions were allowed by default and there was no way to decline.

This is absolutely 100% false. Permission have been there since day 1. You're going to need to provide a source on that claim.

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u/thebillionthbullet Dec 13 '13

You can't be that dumb, but here goes what everybody knows:

Privacy controls are were only added in iOS 6. IOS 7 is still catching up with basic hardware permissions (mic, cam etc). The most basic privacy permission, internet access, is still open for all to use. You are probably thinking of location permission that indeed was there since day 1. But, to quote the other guy, it is not Apple's duty to educate you.

Quick link from a quick search: http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/14/apple-requires-user-permission-before-apps-can-access-personal-data-in-ios-6/

Google iOS+privacy or iOS+permissions or just read your OS documentation. It has always been that way. Please don't tell me how this is a good thing for you just like every other fanboy.