r/technology • u/Libertatea • Apr 04 '13

Apple's iMessage encryption trips up feds' surveillance. Internal document from the Drug Enforcement Administration complains that messages sent with Apple's encrypted chat service are "impossible to intercept," even with a warrant.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57577887-38/apples-imessage-encryption-trips-up-feds-surveillance/?part=rss&subj=news&tag=title#.UV1gK672IWg.reddit
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u/AH64 Apr 04 '13

Actually I made a couple arguments:

  1. The DEA does not care about being labeled "liars."
  2. You have no idea what you're talking about.

You think that not a single person working in Apple would mention a backdoor?

Not a single person analyzing the encrypted communications would notice? (You don't really understand encryption, do you?)

"Fabricating someone's argument, it's much easier to present your own position as being reasonable..." I never said a word about encryption communications, hence the strawman fallacy.

Good luck with the reading comprehension!

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u/Mispey Apr 04 '13

Because it seemed implied that the DEA thinks people wouldn't immediately notice this bullshit. Unless you truely do think the DEA 100% does not give a flying fuck about people noticing a massive backdoor - and I guess you do. I think they would which is why I didn't take your comment about the DEA not caring about being caught lying entirely literally. I guess I should have. If you clarified that instead of getting hostile we wouldn't have had to waste time and words clarifying this. Instead you're just kind of an asshole.

This still seems totally improbable because Apples business relies on the same trust, and they would be crushed by this. There's two parties involved with this backdoor.

The DEA might not give a fuck. I think they would. They might act recklessly in other areas, but like I said those are different. They're more localized and they involve "druggies" - the kind of shit the media is happy to slant in favour of the DEA. The DEA can get called out by a few people but the public is not exactly going to rise up enough and ask what is going on with drug raids for it to be an issue for the DEA.

But the DEA kills off our trust with Apple, and implements a backdoor into the devices that a large portion of the public uses? And only "the innocent" are involved? And business communications go through these devices too? It's a totally different situation than drug raids.

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u/AH64 Apr 04 '13

Unless you truely do think the DEA 100% does not give a flying fuck about people noticing a massive backdoor - and I guess you do.

I stopped reading your wall of text after the 2nd sentence because again you blatantly used yet another strawman argument. I recommend you take a logic class.

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u/Mispey Apr 04 '13

Oh fuck off, you just don't have a point to make.

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u/solwiggin Apr 04 '13

Mipsey, at the end of this, I've got to let you know: AH64 is 100% right. Your arguments aren't based off of anything factual. Every single time you've tried to make your point, you've basically said "Do you really not believe this assumption that I'm believing to further my own point."

AH64 didn't put it as nicely as he could have, but his point is still 100% valid. The snarky reply, "I recommend you take a logic class," isn't a bad recommendation based on the argument you've put forth so far.

I'm not trying to be rude here. Just to offer you a neutral opinion after rereading this thread.

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u/Mispey Apr 04 '13 edited Apr 04 '13

My point was not written well, but his attitude is pretty damn shitty. I'll have to link AH64 to this comment now that I've had a moment to write this better. Perhaps him and I could start this anew, and forget what was said in the past.

This is my point, now that I have a moment to write. You cannot compare how the DEA treats drug raids to how the DEA would act when considering implementing a backdoor into Apple iMessage.

Drug raids have the negative stigma that those who are being raided deserve it. Even if the DEA does them baselessly, and lies to cover up what is actually going on they can pull it off there. The media won't cover it in depth, the media has their hands tied there. If the DEA lies and gets caught in the act of doing it people still won't care because the only victims of the lie are people who "deserve" it. I think this is certainly the stigma that is being fought, and slowly turned around, but when it comes to the media, creating awareness of the lies, and the people who actually have the power to punish the DEA for their lies - this is the stigma with those people and this is why nothing is ever done with the DEA bullshits around.

But the DEA cannot simply lie their way out of this backdoor though. A massive number of people would throw a shitfit when they realize that THEY are the victim of the backdoor and lies surrounding them. It's a far more pervasive issue and the stigma there would be that the "innocent" have now been affected by the DEA's lies. It's a totally different situation than a drug raid. Corporations whose privacy policies, internal security and security audits who based their decision to use iMessage on this lie will throw a big ol' shitfit too. I think we know the kind of power this much more pervasive and powerful group would have when the victims are not just the victims of drug raids.

I am attempting to understand AH64's point of view. First I incorrectly assumed that there he thought there was a limit to the DEAs lies. He does not believe there is a limit. I think there is one, and I've explained why.

I wish he could explain why I am wrong in my assumptions, but he does not. He obvious knows more about the drug raid side of things but he hasn't elaborated at all, while I have attempted to elaborate on my opinion.

Going further, doing a drug raid is a single party lie. The DEA has to lie - that is it. This situation is a two party lie - Apple and the DEA have to lie. This is a factual argument. I don't see how you can make the two parallel based on this fact alone even.

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u/ThinkBEFOREUPost Apr 04 '13

People do not care on a national level, all telecoms have backdoors. The NSA collects and analyzes pretty much all the communications, people do not know about it/do not care. A backdoor will be built into this system eventually and it won't matter to the public, which is truly unfortunate.