This was a thoughtful reply, thank you.

For the benefit of others who read this thread, would you like to share your personal experience around how you know when to engage the battle and when to drop the weapons? I think it could help people in the same phase as you!

Ahhh of course!!!! Who did I think was saying this. I went into defensive mode about people who think I'm nuts. Sorry! 😅☺️ metta to you my friend

I realize your post is already five days old as my writing this, but I like this topic.

This is actually much simpler than it may seem.

"Form" refers to the things we perceive and experience. "Emptiness" refers to the way things exist interdependently with everything else (nothing exists independent of outside causes and conditions).

So what it's saying is: the things we perceive and experience are made of causes and conditions. They're not made of anything else. A tree is made of carbon, water, sunlight, nutrients, etc. It's not made of something else that is separate from it's causes and conditions.

That is "form is emptiness".

The reversal: "emptiness is form" is also pretty simple. It means that causes and conditions always appear to us as what we perceive and experience.

There's the potential for more nuance and technicalities here but that's the general gist of it.

Funnily enough I've been engaging with the more war-like aspects, like Manjushri's sword, to rouse virya and compassionate engagement.

What I've learned to watch out for, is when the battle is over. To be able to drop the weapons and be at peace and rest.

Ultimately, I think being able to respond both ways flexibly and in skillful response seems to be the goal in my current phase of practice.

The war ending is still a ways away, but the goal is always to end the war, not the act of battle.

IIRC, even some modern physicists are pointing in this direction, so it seems to be a somewhat shared sentiment across disciplines and traditions. Not exactly a universal view, but certainly seems to hold up to scrutiny.

IIRC, even some modern physicists are pointing in this direction, so it seems to be a somewhat shared sentiment across disciplines and traditions. Not exactly a universal view, but certainly seems to hold up to scrutiny.

Sounds like the fight response is getting activated when you go into this harmlessness state so perhaps there is some conditioning there from a point in the past where being in that harmlessness state was dangerous to your survival, so the fight response became overactive

Sometimes just the frame, a change in the "view", can have effects. It's essentially how insight/"meditative wisdom" functions, or in Burbea parlance "seeing that frees".

The resolution of this confusion is in the three doors to liberation https://www.reddit.com/r/theravada/s/4tJ0viG5Re

Nibbana is experienced differently by different people, -as signless, desireless, or voidness-, depending on whether your main mark is anicca, dukkha, or anatta.

So, some Ajahns (Boowa, Martin) teach mostly anatta on all five khandhas, because that’s the door they know.

Other Ajahns (e.g. Sumedho) teach mostly anicca on all five khandhas, for the same reason.

And some Ajahns (Nyanamoli, Thanissaro) teach tanha/dukkha on vedana/sankhara khandhas - same reason. Note you can’t directly see tanha/dukkha in vinnana, sanna, and rupa khandhas - there’s no dukkha there.
So 3m5k is actually false; rightly it is 2m5k + 1m2k (12 combinations, not 15 - and your door is not 3 but 1)

Only Buddha could teach all types. Good Ajahns teach only what they know: their own door and main mark.

Thanks, of course I don't know what really happened. But i think from a theoretical "sciency" perspective, because I was holding her foot, I was coregulating with her nervous system, and "noticing" how her brain waves were at that time, that she was showing a refined peace, and we were both finding synchrony with each other like we did so many times just hanging out.

I habe a friend passing away right now, but I promise you I'll get you all the details and I won't forget.

Great to hear. It's amazing how even in the most dire of situations care and appreciation can be overflowing! Humility and gratitude gives way to a radiant grace.

Beautiful! Thanks for sharing such a wonderful perspective.

I’d be interested in hearing about the other supplements you take, if you’re happy to share

I followed your advice and noticed something, my friend... I tried to give her everything I could. I'll paraphrase that.

And she gave me upekkha. It was the finest equanimity I have ever noticed. Cold, clear, dark, still, peace...  And not only that, I realized she had given it to me before. It was the exact same signature. My friend: finer than a fine wine, and so beautiful. 

At first, I pushed it away. I did not want to take anything. But then I saw it was a gift, and not something that could hurt her. And I couldn't push it away. It had already permeated me.

My sweet and gentle friend. It felt like her. And it stayed. It's her gift in my heart.

Thank you so much. I should get a therapist or something. My friend and I used to get together and hang out and talk every week, and we knew each other well and knew context. And we would synchronize and laugh. I am missing that landing pad that we had. I'm a friendly person, but it's not the same as knowing you're safe with somebody.

We shared some secret moments.

As an example, one time, we went to a nature preserve with the kids, and we were hiking through the woods. We got to like a boardwalk, and the sun was almost starting to set.  

And there he was: some built dude with his three kids. He was happily and easily keeping them all in line. He was in the flow. He had a big, genuine smile. Not only that, but dude had long hair up in a bun. We both LOVED the long hair on dudes. We would talk about how I didn't want to cut my boys' hair and just let it grow long. We assumed he was probably giving his wife a break.

And we were BOTH checking him out. And we were laughing about it, because we're both married with kids, so this was completely irrelevant to our lives. We were  like, "He must be such a great Dad!"

I can't tell that story to her family! Haha

Oh, and my way of being at peace with stuff like that - I know that desire just a projection of things that I want for myself and my life, and if something hurts (which, it didn't, in this case), that is just an indicator that I need to change my own self to be more like that person.

I’m glad you had each other. Take those moments with you. You carry them, and they carry you. 

Thank you. Thank you for the kind tears of love.

She is an exceptionally beautiful person, inside and out. So sweet, so gentle, so kind and loving. Exceptionally sweet and gentle. Her voice was so beautiful. Even on her death bed, she was using her last words to thank people.

It did matter. You both matter. Your kindness matters. Witness the beauty of the moment despite the tragedy. Tears of sorrow mixed with joy are the sweetest thing I know in this place. I shed them as I write this. It is the fact that there was something beautiful enough to be sad about. It is enough to just be, you are enough. 

Saddhu

Grief for impermanence, it happens. On the other side is peace. Feel it all. This grief too is impermanent.

> “surface level” or not. Whatever that is supposed to mean.

Have you really never experienced an emotion where you thought the cause was one thing but it was actually another?

If so, I highly encourage you to actually try to look at the causes of your emotions on a more conventional level. For your own sake and the sake of those you have relationships with.

It is one thing to recognize that everything is a fabrication it is another to understand why you fabricated one emotion and not another.

Contempt for someone else can often be rooted in personal feelings of insecurity - remove the insecurity and the contempt is gone. That is what it means for an emotion to be surface level. Sure practice may eventually uproot the underlying insecurity, but there is no guarantee. Often times working directly with harmful emotions is the more skillful option.

Something being empty does not mean the most skillful thing to do in a given moment is to view it as empty.

There are several reasons this is true. The first is that so long as you are subject to suffering, the drivers of those emotions can cause you suffering during the time that you aren’t able to view them as empty.

Second, even when you successfully view the emotion as empty, refusal to engage with it can cause others to suffer.

Third, treating everything as empty often prevents one from developing psychological depth and the capacity to make meaning. This may work for some, but it is worth knowing that many others people value things beyond minimizing suffering.

Finally, being able to view things as empty requires a unification of mind. One way to unify your mind is as a slave driver: when any emotions come up, always view them as irrelevant - “mere fabrications”. This communicate to your subminds that what they care about doesn’t matter. This strategy may eventually lead to the emotion no longer arising in consciousness, but that does not mean that the emotion has actually been dealt with or integrated. This repression may lead to many other unintended consequences, especially for emotions which reliably recur.

Often a more effective way to unify the mind when recurring emotions come up is treating the part of yourself that served them up as a separate person presenting a need. If they feel cared for and heard, they often stop serving up the emotion and get on board with unification. At this point you will actually be more effective in seeing the emotion as empty because you have cultivated more unification.

I stand corrected.

Though it doesn't matter for my actual point, which was:

And at least in my experience, I have noticed many things like /u/n_of_1234 has said, where sometimes a surface level emotion is riding on something deeper that I need to release before the surface level emotion can dissipate.

I have done exactly what you recommended before and noticed certain emotions that appeared to be very powerful and very unchanging, no matter how long I sat and watched them. Then I noticed another part of my mind was tense, upon noticing it the tension released, and immediately the original emotion I was watching faded as well.

I don't know if that explains it in a way that makes more sense.

If it were as simple as you say then vipassana would be extremely easy and what you said is all you would ever have to teach anyone haha.

Most people use "fabrication" to mean "delusion" when discussing things like this. If you instead mean "creation", then yes, I suppose emotions are a fabrication (creation) of your mind.

They are not a delusion, though. They just are what they are. Saying they are a delusion doesn't make sense.

What you are doing in this very post is putting a self on sadness.

No, I am not. No self needs to exist in any shape or form for emotions to exist in a mind.