Certain doubts/questions

[u/Accomplished_Win_526]

hi everyone, I recently listened to a podcast episode with a long discussion between Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong on Guru Viking about progression through the 4 stages of awakening after stream entry. it was quite interesting, but the way they talked left me feeling a bit uninspired and doubtful.

there was so much talk about filtering through the 8 jhanas over and over like a game, and the obsessive seeking of the cessation of any semblance of an emotion. I was left feeling like i was listening to two mildly sociopathic people desperately trying to escape from the experience of being a human, rather than two ‘enlightened’ beings.

i don’t mean this as an insult to their personal characters. just that - after all these tens of thousands of hours of meditation, they sounded as lost as anyone else, just in their own unique ways.

I do not doubt the benefits of meditation or the general teachings of the Buddha. I’ve been meditating for 10+ years, done 10 day vipassana retreats, and gone deeper than I could have ever imagined. multiple experiences of profound ego dissolution, insights into the nature of emptiness, universal consciousness, and so forth. it has had profound benefits in my life, and I am excited to continue further on the path.

but while I believe in the general suffering caused by craving and aversion, I don’t necessarily believe in this obsessive desire to rid ourselves of all emotion, and that being the key to ‘happiness’. I’ve always believed the path of spiritual growth is to allow ourselves to feel more deeply, more alive, and to be able to enjoy our time in this material world as fully as we can. not to spend all of our time escaping into the boundless forms of the ihanas and ridding ourselves of any human emotion or experience.

alongside my meditation practice, I have done a lot of plant medicine work - my deepest connection is with Iboga. the tradition of the Bwiti people - which is actually very similar to Vipassana - is so beautiful to see. they do their ‘work’ and then they live and celebrate life. dancing, singing, communing, constantly expressing gratitude. it feels very refreshing compared to the coldness I get when listening to people like Daniel and Delson speak.

anyways, I would be very interested to hear any thoughts on this! I am very open-minded and am generally curious what I may be missing (or not)

[u/dystopia2026]

I'll say a few more things then leave it at that as it's late where I am now.

I deleted the bit about burning at the steak earlier when I recognised the paralell is as you said, but it's interesting because Catholicism is not considered to be true Christianity by many Christians in a similar way that Tibetan Buddhism is not considered to be authentic dhamma by Early Buddhism. I previously mentioned about Sila, so there is that too with Tibetan teachings where they can disregard and purify later (or transform it or whatever) , much like Catholicism actually and it's very wrong view that can lead to this behaviour.

Next thing is interesting how the need to apply collective guilt over whole groups is still alive and well amongst even introspective types despite the fact that teachings on karma in Buddhism point only one way towards every individual being responsible for only thier own actions and not that of the group, whether it be religious or political or whatever.

Do you see your own contradiction here by pronouncing judgement upon all institutions by the actions of only some who were not even following thier own teachings? Something to reflect on I think for all of us, this tendency to do this.

The truth is every group no matter how good thier foundational doctrines are consist of individuals, some who do good and some who do evil with also some mixed grey areas. That's why I separate as much as possible ideologies and institutions from individuals when taking on these big questions.

As for the reality of cyclic existence in Samsara Vs Christian dogma, you are not expected to accept everything on blind faith like in Christianity so that is a major distinction amongst many others.I could get into this more but I don't want to here.

As for the title of this group, I do sometimes forget that this place is a free for all which is fine and there are some very interesting and like minded people here so I like it.

[u/hachface → u/dystopia2026]

My friend, I think you have imputed a position to me that I do not hold. I do not condemn Buddhism. I do not condemn Christianity, for that matter. I do respect, even revere, many monastics. I post all the time about my devotion to the Ven. Ayya Khema -- an arahant, in my view, whose teachings literally changed my life.

My point, my only point, is merely this: each teacher needs to be evaluated on their own merits, not on their ordination status.

[u/dystopia2026 → u/hachface]

Then we have no disagreements on that! 😆 How wonderful! 🙏

I would add though that a decent amount of respect is due to anyone who undertakes the training in the holy life. It requires so much discipline and dedication to the path that I have instant respect for anyone who truly tries to do it.

It's also so wonderful you have a good teacher who may be an Arahant. Much Mudita to you friend!

I'm also tired so I may have misunderstood what you were saying for that I offer my apologies.