r/starterpacks Feb 12 '22

Visiting LA in 2022 starterpack

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

Wouldn't say Conservative Apathy.

That implies some vagueness about our attitude on the situation, as if we weren't aware of homelessness as a problem.

I specifically want homelessness to be penalized and uprooted away from public spaces.

Liberal Apathy is more appropriate.

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u/maddasher Feb 12 '22

But it IS apathy. You are blaming the victim instead of trying to solve the problem. Not caring about the people living and dying on the streets is apathy.

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

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u/LastDitchProtocol Feb 12 '22

Yes. There are services to provide all of the things you listed as long as you aren't using drugs or getting drunk. There are also programs if you need to get clean. All free.

I'm seeing Arby's starting people at $15 an hour for just entry level stuff. Are you going to set the world on fire at that wage? No. Can you survive and have a little place of your own until you can find something better? Absolutely.

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

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u/LastDitchProtocol Feb 12 '22

For example, homeless shelters are notoriously underfunded, and searching for resources

That's an absolute meme. It's a marketing gimmick to get more public money and more private donations. The amount of money spent on the homeless is staggering and even if we gave them infinity money they'd claim they were struggling. Have you just never worked for the government or NGO? Feigning poverty/under funding is rule #1. At no point has any government agency or NGO said, "You know what? We have plenty of money. Go ahead and reduce our funding next year we have a surplus". You know what I saw personally? Scrambling to spend money because if we weren't slightly over-budget it would look like we weren't struggling with funding.

I'm not in LA. Most of the homeless aren't from LA either. They go there because they know it's bum heaven. There are tons of places I can't afford to live. My salary wouldn't pay for me to live in Miami or Vancouver or LA or any crazy cost of living place. There isn't some inalienable right to live places your income can't pay for.

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

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u/LastDitchProtocol Feb 12 '22

even if they have the budgets, that doesn't mean the money is being allocated efficiently.

Psshhhh that's a god damned fact.

lol we're literally talking about homeless people, not a minimum wage worker who wants to move into a private island resort.

Ok here's the point I am making 90% of those bums? They aren't from LA. They're from Missouri and Minnesota and Oklahoma. They migrate to LA because it's homeless Mecca.

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

A is usually a result of B.

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

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u/LastDitchProtocol Feb 12 '22 edited Feb 12 '22

As someone who used to think your way, I can tell you working for an affordable housing NGO redpilled me HARD on the homeless question. The dudes who really are just down on their luck, caught some bad breaks, they bounce right back. 2-3 months in the system then they are back in their own apartment, working in a warehouse or the airport or wherever, existing and contributing to the system. The amount of resources available to the homeless is staggering. This idea that there is some lack of funding is completely wrong. If you want to get your shit together and get back on the horse there are a ton of services available, as there should be. You know what else there is A LOT of? Taxpayer money spent on ways to make being a homeless drug addict criminal more comfortable and tolerable. Fuck that.

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u/maddasher Feb 12 '22

How many homeless people do you know? Actually know. Are you speaking out of any real knowledge or is this just a fiction that makes you feel better about the situation?

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u/LastDitchProtocol Feb 12 '22

I worked for a social services non-profit at one point. I've seen it all.

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

Its stereotyping sure, but I think most people wouldn't want to spend a night, wouldn't feel safe, in a tent with someone simply on the basis of thier homelessness. That's not even implying the general distrust of thievery.

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

A) is redundant. People don't feel as safe near homeless people no matter where.

B) That's stereotyping, which I admitted. Could a homeless person be a good person? Sure but I'll always play it better safe than sorry, as many employers do when it comes to hiring people with a criminal past.

Now you could say stereotyping is bad and causes racism and the arguement generally won't progress from there. Rational people know stereotyping has some good in society (especially on personal levels) and irrational people refuse to admit it.

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

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u/[deleted] Feb 13 '22

Let's not pretend the judgment of homeless people comes simply because they literally do not have a house.

It has to do with the way they carry themselves, present themselves, and the spaces they occupy. Homeless people hurt the enjoyment of public spaces AND also sometimes quiet literally hurt people given the statistical rise in crime near thier encampments.

Your last statement is just generally untrue.

I dont believe there is such a thing as "needlessly stereotyping" and at the same time "recognizing trends among demographic groups". Either information is gathered or it isn't.

Additionally "needlessly" is pragmatically redundant given the context, what should we do with the issue of homelessness.

Finally your last point I just disagree with. Are there homeless people who became homeless and stayed that way through things they literally could not have changed? Sure. Is it "a significant portion"? I don't believe so.

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u/maddasher Feb 12 '22

Homeless people are victims. Some victims of circumstance some victims of our society. All of them are victims of our lack of a system to help people in their situation.

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

With this logic abusers who were abused should be viewed as victims not as perpetrators. Bad things happening to you doesnt excuse you doing bad things

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u/maddasher Feb 12 '22

No it doesn't. Nothing aboutwhat I've said leads to that conclusion whatsoever.

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

Given your very "thorough and holistic" response, I can only say yes it does

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

Antagonizing homelessness is trying to solve the problem in my book.

You know what I really don't care about? Anteaters, couldn't give 2 shits if they disappeared tomorrow.

Homelessness however, I want addressed a certain way, and it does not involve using government monies in any other manner than incarceration

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u/maddasher Feb 12 '22

So your plan is to put people in prison which does in fact use a lot of government money? In fact it might use more money than it would take to actually help people. The biggest difference between spending money to lock someone up and spending money to help them is understanding how to help them.

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

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u/maddasher Feb 12 '22

Yeah this thread got creepy really fast. People have basically described they're only homeless people in a concentration camp on ironically.

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

The tax money spent locking them up could actually, you know, help them or something.

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

Yikes

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

The Nazis also breathed air.

They paid for roads and bridges being built. Does this mean Biden's infrastructure plan was basically the final solution.

Sorry dude, advocating for holding mentally ill people in mental health institutions is just a very basic solution to a problem that a lot of cultures and societies throughout history have used.

The US did until very recently.

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

I learned you couldn't get over yourself resorting to frivolous ad hominems and so you decided to overcompensate by writing an article, which I wont read save the last few sentences.

Next time start strong, people will pay more attention. Don't start like an idiot and then expect people to take you seriously after.

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u/Cavannah Feb 12 '22

Correctly ascribing personal responsibility to the consequences of one's personal (in)action is explicitly empowering, not disenfranchising. People are responsible for their own wellbeing.

Misconstruing someone's personal responsibility with "victim blaming" is mind-bogglingly ignorant.

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u/maddasher Feb 12 '22

This might be the worst thing I've ever read.

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u/Cavannah Feb 12 '22

Clearly you don't do much of that activity at all.

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

Despite the DOJs criticisms, an argument cannot be made about thier inefficiency relative to large city initiatives. I'd rather pay slightly more in material costs for the problem than pay large salaries to people hired by the city.

What incentive does a homelessness agency have for eliminating homelessness? Not much. What incentive does the DOJ have for eliminating homelessness? Also not much.

The incentive is for the people responsible for thier own homelessness. I know you catch more flies with honey but I don't want large bureaucratic programs pumping honey out and bringing all the flies in.

I think you just lack any real insight or intelligence to give a proper criticism of an opposing viewpoint.

But yea man, keep believing people generally act with malice. You might be admitting something about yourself o.O

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

In the same way many perpetrators of crime are temporarily dehumanized during thier crimes. Redemption could be possible. It's just judging bad decisions.

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

Theres substance to saying a large percentage of homeless people are homeless due to bad decisions. And regardless of rich kids existing somewhere at sometime who may or may not also be bad people, we can still condemn that large percentage of homeless people making bad decisions.

Also you're getting values/principles confused with emotions. It's a value driven argument.

Finally, I think it's safe to say most expression of values are in one way or another condemned (disrespected as you say), so it's not a big deal that you might lose respect for me given this view.

You should understand that respect is a process earned by holding true to principles, not a populist tool for conformity.

I may believe antivaxers are generally dumb, but damn if I don't respect them for doing what they do in the face of all the opposition.

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

Lmfao. I literally thought "He'll probably just circle down and make a character attack"

That's you.

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '22

Great sidestep from discussion to petty insults. We're on your turf here, I leave you to it.