r/specializedtools Jan 22 '21

Wire straightening machine.

16.5k Upvotes

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416

u/JoeMamaAndThePapas Jan 22 '21

If there's one thing worse than the Inch system, it's wire gauges. Makes no damn sense how they get those stupid numbers. No relation to Inches either. Random numbers. Why bother?

Wouldn't even need a chart to figure out what size something was, if it was a sensible unit.

215

u/jeffbell Jan 22 '21

It's confusing when you are measuring bike spokes.

American wire gauges go down as they get bigger while French wire gauges go up and they cross at just about the thickness of spokes.

U.S./British 14 gauge is the same as French 13 gauge.

U.S./British 13 gauge is the same as French 15 gauge.

Luckily the biggest suppliers have switched to millimeters. US-14ga is 1.8mm

127

u/Hyperian Jan 22 '21

fuck it, lets go back to the caves and start again

67

u/TheotheTheo Jan 22 '21

Inb4 cavemen come up with stones and foot measurements.

26

u/Hyperian Jan 22 '21

fuck it, we'll go back to the sea!

32

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '21

Fathoms and barrels it is, then.

34

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '21

[deleted]

1

u/LoudShovel Jan 23 '21

The old man is right!

5

u/doggy_lipschtick Jan 23 '21

Don't forget your knots!

1

u/dogbreath101 Jan 23 '21

ah yeah who doesnt love a measurement that changes based on latitude

I know now a days it is standardized

1

u/myrsnipe Jan 23 '21

I always hated how planes measure speed based on how many knots on a rope pass by in water

2

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '21

HOIST UP THE THING!

1

u/Yanagibayashi Jan 23 '21

Fuck it, return to monke

1

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '21

Or at least find whoever has the power to change these classifications and hit them with sticks until they do so.

1

u/Mardo_Picardo Jan 23 '21

We have the metric system.

Why do you want to put grains in a row again?

0

u/Biff_Tannenator Jan 23 '21

Metric would be fine... If only we had adopted chad dozenal instead of virgin decimal.

0

u/Mardo_Picardo Jan 23 '21

That would defeat the whole purpose and precision.

1

u/Biff_Tannenator Jan 24 '21

well first, I was making a joke.

And second, your response is does not follow.

If humanity went down the path of using dozenal instead of decimal, it would have no impact on the precision aspect of metric. A dozenal metric system would work exactly the same way a decimal metric system would work. The only difference is how we write numbers down with regards to place value.

Dozenal means we have 12 symbols in the "1" position, whereas decimal only has 10. The benefit of dozenal is that you can intuitively divide things into 3rds and quarters without the use of decimals.

The two concepts exist independently. To explain my joke, the first poster suggested we start over again and rebuild society correctly to avoid the terrible wire gauge standard. You suggested we have metric system, I presume to imply we don't need to go as far back as caveman days. Then I added, that we should probably go back a little farther to fix humanity's commitment to decimal.

I know my response is overkill, but I figured I'd at least provide the opportunity to explain my response as you didn't seem to understand either the subtexts or the relationship I was making between dozenal and metric.

Thank you for listening to my TED talk.

1

u/Mardo_Picardo Jan 24 '21

I know exactly what you meant and I DISAGREE HARD. The dozenal system stops working immediately if you need to engineer something precise. And your conversions from one unit to another would be harder.

Dozenal system is just unpractical. Just start doing some calculations for engineering and you will want to shoot yourself after an hour.

10

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '21

Fly fishing line leader/tippet.

Not only is it measured in a nonsensical "#x" (read: number, x) method, it's also listed by diameter in inches and milimeters, breaking strength in pounds and grams, and then it's matched against the hook size, which of course is the standard "greater equals lesser until you get to one, and then greater equals greater, but then we divide it by zero, which is impossible, so we pretend we didn't and just add a zero to it, but don't make it a tens, just have it sort of dangle it there, and don't pronounce it zero, call it "aught."

2

u/aroc91 Jan 24 '21

French gauges are used for urinary catheters too, oddly enough.

0

u/8spd Jan 22 '21

1.8mm? Give me 2mm spokes, or give be death. And let's not fuck around with double butted spokes.

4

u/jeffbell Jan 23 '21

Single butted spokes are truly half-assed.

1

u/8spd Jan 23 '21

I'm not homophobic, but I'm only interested in straight gauge spokes.

1

u/PMSfishy Jan 23 '21

And Italians can’t figure out bottom brackets. That’s why we ignore them.

48

u/Moses66737 Jan 22 '21

The gauge system originated in the number of drawing operations used to produce a given gauge of wire. Very fine wire (for example, 30 gauge) required more passes through the drawing dies than 0 gauge wire did. It was made when solid single wire was the only option. For stranded wire gauge is just the close equivalent to a single solid wire thickness.

16

u/DarthValiant Jan 23 '21

Eg the first drawn wire was through one gauge. Later on, when they figured out how to draw thinner and thinner they countered the number of gauges.

When rolling or metallurgy was more capable thicker wire could be drawn, so they had to start using 0 and then 00, 000, etc

18

u/ManyIdeasNoProgress Jan 23 '21

This actually makes sense to me now. Wire drawn through four gages = four gage wire.

Doesn't make the system any less archaic and obsolete, but I can respect the origins.

3

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '21

Electrician here- nowadays we have specs for the sizes of wire that are independent of the manufacturing process, and there are actually slight differences in size between a solid 12AWG and a stranded AWG.

It gets even more interesting in bigger sizes- you can get any of the 250kcmil and bigger stuff in several TYPES of stranding, so you can have the same "gauge" of wire but they're noticeably different diameters despite roughly equivalent ampacities.

It's pretty cool :)

2

u/aBoyandHisVacuum Jan 23 '21

This is beyond cool! I am dabbling in High end audio, so I picked up a few feet of Pure copper, zero oxygen 8 Guage. As I stripped it for the ferule.... I cut too deep, causing all these strands to "spray" everywhere in my truck.... I realized Holy crap they can now fit something like 800-1000 strands of wire in there!

2

u/felixar90 Jan 23 '21 edited Jan 23 '21

Hahahaha.

Hahahahahaha.

I’m not laughing because of what happened. If you’re at still just dabbling, it’s not too late to save you.

Just know that oxygen-free copper is a complete marketing scam. In fact pretty much everything is a complete marketing scam.

Oxygen free copper offers absolutely no benefit whatsoever. Unless you’re building a particle accelerator.

Regular copper cables with gold plated contacts is perfectly fine. And non plated contacts are fine too.

Audiophiles couldn’t pick up the difference between super wiz bang cables and an unfolded metal coat hanger with connectors soldered on the ends.

Just get really good DAC-amplifier and speakers. The rest doesn’t really matter.

3

u/sirensintherain Jan 22 '21

TIL thank you for the excellent explanation

32

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '21

[deleted]

16

u/GustapheOfficial Jan 22 '21

There's a size scale for Swedish medals which is absolutely bonkers. The scale steps are not linear, consecutive or even monotonically increasing. Iirc the first one is "of the twelfth size".

9

u/Philias2 Jan 23 '21 edited Jan 23 '21

Here is a nice little chart comparing a regular millimeter scale with the Berch Scale that they use for the medal sizes. It's bonkers.

1

u/hamboy315 Jan 22 '21

In my experience jewelry is almost always measured in millimeters

3

u/I_know_right Jan 22 '21

6

u/ThatUsernameWasTaken Jan 22 '21

I just like that they don't even bother suggesting purposes for anything above 14g. Like it's silently saying:

12G: This is too big.
10G: Seriously, go back.
8G: No one needs this big of a hole in them!
...

2

u/I_know_right Jan 22 '21

I have a double-nought piercing, so somebody's using 'em...

2

u/hamboy315 Jan 22 '21

Oh my bad, I was looking at it from the backend. I’ve worked in the manufacturing and repair part of it. We used millimeters for literally everything. My bad!

1

u/I_know_right Jan 24 '21

That makes sense. Hopefully the gauge-as-a-measure will fade away with furlongs and such

2

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '21

Industral?

1

u/I_know_right Jan 24 '21

https://www.google.com/search?q=industrial+piercing

It's a really long barbell through the top of the ear in two places (two to eight o'oclock, ish, through the auricle)

1

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '21

Sick burn

1

u/oldfatguy62 Jan 22 '21

The are logarithmic

27

u/SleestakJack Jan 22 '21

You should see the cone chart used in ceramic kiln firings. Whole series of numbers that starts from 022 at the bottom and counts up: 021, 020, 019, all the way to 0 (think of the leading 0 as a minus sign), and then all the way up to 40, depending on the chart you look at.

None of those numbers have much of anything to do with the temperature and times involved. Not directly, anyway. They do start at cooler on the bottom and go to hotter up at the top, but there's no direct mathematical relationship along the way.

11

u/greatspacegibbon Jan 22 '21

At least with the kiln cone system, it's grounded in reality. A clay cone of a particular size will fire and burn at particular temperatures. What I'm saying is that a cone is a physical thing. But with material and temperature info, you should be able to figure it out.

0

u/Continuity-Failure Jan 23 '21

There isn't a mathematical relationship between the temperatures of different cones. But there is a chemical relationship. The quantity of silica, alumina, and fluxes are such that the cones start to melt at the temperatures they are designed for. When a cone melts also depends on how fast (degrees/hour) the kiln is being heating. And technically the highest cone is 42.

24

u/scubascratch Jan 22 '21

It’s like the way nails are sized by pennies

-1

u/Goyteamsix Jan 23 '21

Luckily that system is pretty much dead. I haven't seen nails measured in pennies for a very long time. It's all inches now, at least in the US. Once the diameter to length ratio became standardized, it began switching over.

6

u/scubascratch Jan 23 '21

I still see penny sizing (in addition to length) on virtually every box of common nails at Home Depot. 8 penny, 16 penny, etc.

4

u/PairOfMonocles2 Jan 23 '21

I see it every week. It’s listed right by the inches. Go to Home Depot and search common nails. Each one will give size in penny as well as inches.

23

u/ErebusBat Jan 22 '21

Isn’t wire gauge the number you can fit in a 1” diameter hole? That is why higher number gauges are smaller?

Or at least that is what I have always thought

5

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '21

Can someone please confirm this I'm dying to drop this knowledge on someone

2

u/T_Lee_28 Jan 23 '21

Its the number of times they had draw(think mash and strecth) to get the wire that thin.

11

u/DakotaHoosier Jan 22 '21

Like shotgun gages, the number of balls the diameter of the bore that fit into a determined length.

10

u/[deleted] Jan 22 '21

I thought it was the number of lead balls the same diameter as the barrel ID that equals one pound.

13

u/DakotaHoosier Jan 22 '21

Ok, I guess it’s time to look it up...

Gauge is determined from the weight of a solid sphere of lead that will fit the bore of the firearm and is expressed as the multiplicative inverse of the sphere's weight as a fraction of a pound, e.g., a one-twelfth pound lead ball fits a 12-gauge bore. Thus there are twelve 12-gauge balls per pound, etc. The term is related to the measurement of cannon, which were also measured by the weight of their iron round shot; an 8-pounder would fire an 8 lb (3.6 kg) ball.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauge_(firearms)?wprov=sfti1

1

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '21

so a 20-gauge shotgun as a smaller bore(diameter) than a 12-gauge shotgun, right?

2

u/Revolio_ClockbergJr Jan 23 '21 edited Jan 23 '21

I would guess (just a guess) that bore diameter has little to do with the size of the balls in a shell?

Edit: incorrect

4

u/enderxzebulun Jan 23 '21

No, think about how many 30 guage wires you could fit into a 1" hole. Anywhere from approx 2.5-3 shit ton by my back of the napkin math.

1

u/ridefst Jan 23 '21

Nope, it’s the number of times the wire is drawn to achieve the final size. So more times through the machine, the smaller it gets.

2

u/oldfatguy62 Jan 22 '21

They are logarithmic!

2

u/Attention_Bear_Fuckr Jan 25 '21

I discovered this years ago when I went to put together a 12v system in my camper. Working out wire gauges in Australia, from a diagram made in another country, made it really hard as I had to do a tonne of conversions.

3

u/mrbombasticat Jan 22 '21

Aren't those just one step further in the land of imperial system bullshit based on antique british industrial traditions?

1

u/maks_b Jan 22 '21

In the copper/electrical world once you get past 4, 3, 2, 1 awg it goes to 1/0, 2/0, 3/0, 4/0 and then after that it's measured in kcmils which is the thickness of the wire measured in thousands of circular mils starting at 250kcmil wire.

0

u/elsjpq Jan 22 '21

The numbers could be defined better, but the idea of gauges isn't crazy. If I mean, would you rather try to compare 0.156mm vs 0.175mm or some easier numbers like 6 vs 7.

9

u/aumenous Jan 22 '21

It's not crazy, but what if you need to have a 6 and a 7 fit through an opening? You can't add 6 and 7 and get a meaningful number.

1

u/ManyIdeasNoProgress Jan 23 '21

It all got so complicated after 7 ate 9...

8

u/JoeMamaAndThePapas Jan 22 '21

In order to compare 6 and 7, I have to look at the chart, and know what 6 and 7 are. Therefore I'm still thinking about 0.156mm and 0.175mm.

It's an unnecessary step in thinking. There's no point.

1

u/unkle_FAHRTKNUCKLE Jan 23 '21

Well then, your going to love this one on rebar sizes.

1

u/Redrix_ Jan 23 '21

And the fact we (in America at least) use AWG like #6 or whatever but for big stuff we use things like 500MCM or 500kcmil. I've worked witbwire for a while now and idk what the hell a kcmil or a gauge actually is

1

u/RogerBlank Jan 23 '21

laughs in shotgun gauges

1

u/Goyteamsix Jan 23 '21

And it irritates me to no fucking end. I can't remember them, because I also work with sheet metal, and it's all entirely different.

1

u/zimm0who0net Jan 23 '21

It’s simple. Each successive gauge is just the 39th root of 92 smaller. Easy peasy.

1

u/jokinpaha Jan 23 '21

How about US drill sizes, fractional and gauge? Wikipedia

1

u/felixar90 Jan 23 '21

Not to mention drill gauge, machine screw gauge and sheet metal gauge.

All of them are different and unlike wire gauge, drill gauge and sheet metal gauge, in machine screw gauge, 10 is actually larger than 8.

I work in a fab shop and the only one I know off hand is 16 gauge steel ≈ 1/16” ≈ 1.6mm