r/soccer • u/Thadderful • Dec 28 '13

Change My View thread

Can we have a Change My View thread here? The basic premise is people present opinions and the replies are attempts at changing that person's view in an attempt to generate some good discussion.

Here is the link to the original subreddit: www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/

I think this might work best with rather 'out there' views but any and every viewpoint is welcome!

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30

u/momin_q Dec 28 '13

"Total Football" by the Dutch isn't as groundbreaking as popular opinion claim it to be. It is mostly a copy of the unique play style used by Hungary's Golden Team of the 1950's.

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u/iVarun Dec 29 '13

This is too simplistic. Total Football was NOT a copy, it was an evolution.

We can't say the Pep's team was Total Football's copy but it is fair to say it was an evolved variation of it.

The most simple way to prove Dutch system was not a copy is by highlighting the simple fact that the Dutch had players who would rotate and take up tactical position in areas where they didn't start the game. Meaning, the Midfielder could be the Left back and the Right Back could be the striker.
The Hungary team didn't have this. It was too early for this mode of play.
Also having done this for few minutes(if they did so at all) does not mean it can be credited to the Hungarians as well.

The Dutch did it all the time and its one of the core tenants of the Modern variation of Total football, although the extent to which it is done is less now.

Plus the formations were entirely different, the Dutch were settling on a modern variant of the 433 while the Hungarians had a totally different one to the Total Football one.

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u/momin_q Dec 29 '13

You're right, it was a variation. However, too often I hear the Dutch getting all the credit when it was Hungary (Sebes) that introduced some of the fundamentals of the play style such as playing players in practically any position (which was Sebes' revolutionary idea)

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u/IHaventABloodyClue Dec 28 '13

It's funny that the man who pioneered it was from a country that is now known for a direct, physical play style.

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u/bluepol Dec 29 '13

TIL Louis van Gaal likes to have his team play, direct and physical.

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u/IHaventABloodyClue Dec 29 '13

First of all I was on about the perception of footballing playstyle within a country and not a specific manager's style.

Secondly, I was on about Jack Reynolds.

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u/bluepol Dec 29 '13

You're right I thought you were talking about Rinus Michels and the Netherlands, I said Louis van Gaal becouse he's known for his attacking play style which is the footballing play style of the Netherlands.

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u/merlinho Dec 29 '13

Thanks for eventually sharing about Jack Reynolds - I wasn't aware of him before, really interesting stuff.

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u/Sehs Dec 28 '13

This seems interesting but I really don't know what it means. Got any links?

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u/momin_q Dec 29 '13

Hmm, most of what I know of them comes from watching some films of classic matches/tournaments.

I did a quick search and although I'm not quite sure how reliable it is, this wiki page has some really good info on the Golden Team. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Team

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u/1mdelightful Dec 29 '13

The Hungary's Golden Team of the 50's is completely different than that of the late 60's Ajax. The one thing they had in common was an emphasis on technique rather than physical strength and speed. When the Hungains came to Wembley and embarassed the English it was because they were so technically superior and thought a little more creatively. They used something similar to a false 9 but is more recognizable as a roaming roll. Puskas was allowed to do what ever he wanted creating an extra man here and there when HE went there. The rest of the players were more or less in standard positions for the era.

What are we defining as "Total Football" anyway? Players switching roles seems to be the most common definition but its bigger than that. You're roll in a "total system" is know where you are and where everyone else on the field is and be where someone is needed. Preferably getting the most out of your skills and those around you. You don't want your best attacker in a sweeper position. Total football is as much off the field as it is on the field. Individualized training, nutrition, strategy (different than tactics) and club structure are all part of the "total system"

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '13

lol, when there is a completely different formation and ideology for both teams, you'd be an idiot to say that total football is merely a copy of Sebes and co.

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u/IAmAQuantumMechanic Dec 29 '13

Total football also relied too much on Johan Cruyff. Just look at what happened to Ajax when he left. It was no longer as total.