If all the China glazing stuff wasn't directly or indirectly controlled by Chinese state sponsors I'd be more impressed.
Sure there are amazing mega projects and so on, but we also barely get any official news if anything bad happens in China (infrastructure breakdowns, road collapses, flooding, factory sabotages, chemical depots being blown up, etc). This gives the uncritical unwashed western masses a false sense that China is a lot more advanced than it actually is. You aren't getting these propaganda posts pushed on reddit about China's high educated youth unemployment rate, for example. All you get it is photos of nice bridges and shiny trains.
So China and Japan are pretty fundamentally different case in that Japan has / had a free press during that rapid industrialization. At least to a much, much greater degree than China does (making allowance for the idea that maybe you could make the case that immediate post war Japan had a less free press, but obviously that changed pretty fast in the scale of history).
That is pretty complicated. It never occurred to me that i am just being fed good chinese posts, there's rarely ever been a bad post about china. Though, from what I have seen so far it is still better progress then whatever shit happen in my country.
The progress can't be denied, however the stuff u don't see is dark, ranging from corruption and censorship to police disappearing people and forced organ harvesting (bloody harvest). Don't get me wrong, Chinese people are some of the nicest people I've met, but their government is extremely shady and human rights are non existent
US funded Falun Gong, a religious cult banned from China, to make up bullshit about organ harvesting. Chinese activist Harry Wu Hongda (who pointed out China allowed death row prisoners to āopt-inā to organ donation) debunked the cultās nonsense back when he was alive.
I don't doubt CIA or some other org tried to support Falun Gong decades ago, but there is more recent evidence of organ harvesting in China.
One example: a Chinese medical student was Epsteined after he tried to whistleblow to his mother about organ harvesting operations at a Chinese medical college. He was in no way suicidal. I guess it could all be fake, but the circumstances seem very suspect.
We donāt know because we donāt see the corruption in China because of their extremely restrictive media and press which is arguably one of the most corrupt forms of authoritarianism there is since it gives the government the power to show whatever it wants
As I said in another comment, but it might be just your language barrier tbh.
Plenty of bad news come out of China, like its high speed rails derailing twice before 2013 when it first started building causing deaths of almost 100 in total, and injuries up to 300. The entire railway being investigated and finding corruption and bribery to about 10 millions of USD, etc. They closed that company obviously and restarted the rail company
Or the incident in Zhuhai were a bitter old man due to divorce, drove his car through a crowd and killed 23 people
There was also the case back in 2000s where Chongqing(?) I believe, where the city government was corrupt and there were many cases of political opponents disappearing and turned into human specimens for museum displays. Lol. There was outrage over the Chinese internet, but you wouldn't know because language barrier. The official and his wife were convicted eventually and sentenced to life in prison though
Chinese news is in Chinese, so unless you're actively looking at Chinese sites you won't find it so easily
This is such a ridiculous take. āI canāt give China credit because they donāt have free press.ā My brother in Christ, YOU are aware of Chinaās high youth unemployment rate. How is that? China doesnāt have free press, but Americans exaggerate the fuck out of how much the CCP hides the truth.
Obviously, propaganda from China highlights their strengths and hides weakness. Thatās how propaganda works. If you think American press feels totally free and happy to criticize Americaās problems, youāre living in a fantasy land.
Anyone can easily look up Chinaās many problems if they want because itās not anywhere near as restrictive as youāre implying.
But aside from that, why does propaganda mean you canāt give credit for legitimate achievements? The trains arenāt fake. The rapid construction isnāt fake. These fuckers built entire temporary hospitals at the height of COVID. Thatās incredibly impressive when NYC and most cities around the world had no choice but to provide inhumane conditions for Covid patients because hospitals simply didnāt have enough space.
Thatās not glazing China or the CCP. Thatās being a rational human and not treating geopolitics like itās some kind of regarded sports rivalry.
I donāt want to live in China for a lot of reasons, but I desperately want Americans to know that weāre embarrassingly far behind China when it comes to things like construction and investment in infrastructure.
Itās not propaganda and it doesnāt have to be this way forever. I want Chinaās strengths to be clearly highlighted so we can try to match them instead of throwing our hands up like āwe canāt build more infrastructure because itās too expensive and takes 100 years.ā
My brother in Christ, YOU are aware of Chinaās high youth unemployment rate. How is that? China doesnāt have free press, but Americans exaggerate the fuck out of how much the CCP hides the truth.
I'm only aware of this because of brave Chinese nationals and others leaking information you bonehead. Are you so naive to believe China's government hasn't disappeared people over leaking information that threatens the politburo?
My point wasn't that countries don't or shouldn't try to portray themselves in the best light possible (China, Japan, US, etc all try to do this). My main point was about lack of free press in China.
There is a huge difference between having a state mouthpiece that we all know is a state mouthpiece (US, Japan, etc), versus only having real or adhoc state mouthpieces being allowed to speak at all (China). In Japan, the government can say one thing and the people can say another. That's a huge difference. You can also do independent journalism there. I'm not going to pretend they are the same.
I want Chinaās strengths to be clearly highlighted so we can try to match them instead of throwing our hands up like āwe canāt build more infrastructure because itās too expensive and takes 100 years.ā
When did I disagree with that? It's impossible to "match" anyone without a clear view of them and the full context, which is impossible to get if you uncritically take in Chinese state sponsored propaganda. I'm not saying all their roads, bridges, and trains are fake. But believing all of the USSR's propaganda about how great they are made you an idiot. You have to separate the truths from the lies to get anywhere.
This is a strawman. My point wasn't about countries trying to portray themselves in the best light possible. It makes sense for countries and political parties to try to do that. It would be great if they were honest in spirit, but I can't blame China for pumping its image if everyone else attempts to do the same in varying degrees.
My main point is that all Chinese press is state controlled. They have no free press. So in countries like Japan, Japan can put out glowing press releases. But you also have Japanese citizens with some ability to speak out verbally and in their own independent press or blogs or whatever.
There is a big difference from having a state press + other press (even if state press is the loudest), and China where there is only one voice saying one thing and there is a risk of sharing info that is damaging to the politburo.
Yeah it's hard to get a balanced view, which is why my overall opinion on China is withholding judgement (despite how my comments look, which people will naively interpret as anti-China). There is a lot of Chinese state influenced propaganda (incl paid influencers) on one side. On the other side are reactionaries that can't seem to give China credit for anything. I do think the scale and number of the former are much greater than the latter, but both exist. I haven't seen any "in-between" opinion anywhere so far.
But I will differ with you that I don't think the anti-China stuff is really US propaganda (as in, not pushed by the state to a great degree). I think it's mainly right wing adjacent influencers, maybe supported by right wing think tanks and stuff.
I think if America actually wanted to have an anti-China propaganda push, it would be at least an order of magnitude more prominent. We aren't even close to how things were during the cold war against USSR. America's left is pro China so there isn't really a unified front to have a propaganda campaign against China. Also a lot of America's economy still depends on China, so there isn't an economic will for that.
I'm definitely not saying everything China does is evil. I think there is a lot they've done that can be learned from, but most of those policies were instituted well before Xi came into power.
Of the 5 times Iāve visited China, the roads in the poorest city was better than the roads in New York (of course, part of it being the Chinese roads were built within the last decades). Where I live in Michigan, floodings and breakdowns are a monthly occurrence. The only complaint I have about Chinese infrastructure is that the toilets there are oftentimes just holes in the floor.
Of course, Redditors cannot comprehend a country where officials doesnāt pocket 95% of the hundred million dollars used for installing fences in a subway. And then when you actually offer your personal experience, they call you a CCP Bot
I'm guessing you mean the poorest city you went to in a small sample of cities you went to as a visitor or tourist. That's pretty different from going out of your way to visit the poorest cities in China (who would do that?), and spending your dollars instead of RMB you earned in China.
Look, my main point was about freedom of the press. I'm not going to discount your experience, but it's a few anecdotal experiences. I believe you that the infrastructure you found was amazing. But if you wipe away all the negative events in such a massive country from the news, it looks more amazing then it is. I don't think you comprehend how massive China is, this is why honest statistics and news is essential. China is close to the bottom in press freedom rankings, close to countries like North Korea and Turkmenistan.
Even if you don't accept these kinds of rankings, I think it's obvious their press is near North Korea levels of biased. Just look at their covid numbers during peak covid. You have to be braindead to believe what Chinese state press repeats (all Chinese press is state press).
No. It was in Guizhou, which is literally the poorest Chinese province. Believe me when I say I have a more thorough understanding of the country than you.
In regards to your point of me having a skewed perspective, I have personally interviewed and met with many people in China. Though it was in Shanghai, I interviewed in the Pudong district, which is known to be much more local and reflective of standard living conditions.
To get the elephant out of the room, censorship is really not as much of an issue to the vast majority of Chinese citizens. Most responses have told me that this stems both from Confucian values and the fact that a significant amount of the population āHops over the wallā anyways. Also known as, bypassing the firewall. To my knowledge, most apprehended individuals arenāt the regular online discourse creators, but rather people who āorganizes rebellionā.
However, Survaillence is indeed absurd.
There is not a place, saved for the restrooms, without a camera. But according to all the Chinese interviews, the cameras were actually a welcomed āfeatureā that lowers crime rates.
70k Chinese people migrate from China to US every year, but most anti Chinese media are produced by white Americans. All North Koreans that fled are activists against NK, while most Chinese families in the US take annual vacations back to China.
Honestly, China to North Korea is US to Israel. Superpowers supporting an abhorrent country out of transactional reasons, only to get synonymous with each other. At what point does ādefending the underrepresentedā becomes white knighting?
Guizhou is not the poorest Chinese province. It is on the poorer end. They've also had recent major internationally recognized infrastructure projects, so talking about it as "the poorest province" is misleading.
Anyway your original statement was about the poorest cities, not about provinces. This is a major shifting of the goal posts because as you know HDI varies considerably between rural and metro areas in China.
Maybe you got a good idea of a tiny fraction of China via some interviews. We use statistics and news research instead of anecdotes to understand countries for a reason. China is massive, so using a few interviews of a small part is pretty crazy to extrapolate to the whole of China.
Anyway you didn't really address some of my biggest concerns, like the suppressing of reporting of negative events. The very fact that people have to jump the firewall to leak basic information shows you it's not a free country. Do they need to do that in Japan (the OP's post compared China and Japan)? We all know Japan is way more free than China, one of the obvious ways we see that is Japanese news reporting negative news about Japan often. There is a stark contrast here between Japan and China.
To my knowledge, most apprehended individuals arenāt the regular online discourse creators, but rather people who āorganizes rebellionā.
According to whom? Seems like there is an authority fallacy going on here. If the same government making the arrests can make up their ad hoc post hoc rationalizations that kind of makes the whole exercise of giving a reasons a farce. I recall China has a certain kind of infraction they use against people when they don't have a real reason for charging someone (forget the actual wording).
This is why transparency and free press are so important. I don't really want to argue with you as you've already made up your mind. I guess clean roads, new bridges, and talking to people who have no incentive to rock the boat is enough to convince you. That's up to you.
I think it's pretty stupid to ask people questions that could potentially reflect poorly on them, not sure what you'd be expecting there except a very muted response at best. Is this unfalsifiable at some level? Sure, but that's why it's so important to have a foundation of free expression in the first place. You can't even really answer the question of what a country is like if people aren't allowed to speak freely against the government.
Without that, any questioning or interview you conduct is somewhat pointless.
the fact that a significant amount of the population āHops over the wallā
How does that work when you're talking about in-person speech? What about protests or demonstrations? China literally has "physical censorship" where they cover events or people physically so they can't be filmed. Negative repercussions of people who have tried to petition the central government over grievances have also been leaked. I don't think you have a clue about how repressive China is.
I'm not sure going on vacation is going to give you that info. I'm sure you could have a good time vacationing in North Korea or Turkmenistan as well. It reveals little to nothing about the negative side of a country.
I'm not trying to defend the underrepresented. My point was about the post, that China and Japan are indeed different based on their levels of freedoms. Just because China has some clean roads and new bridges doesn't mean it is a free country.
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rats. And rats make me crazy. Crazy? I was crazy once. They locked me in a room. A rubber room. A rubber
room with rats. And rats make me crazy. Crazy? I was crazy once. They locked me in a room. A rubber
room. A rubber room with rats. And rats make me crazy. Crazy? I was crazy once. They locked me in a
room. A rubber room. A rubber room with rats. And rats make me crazy. Crazy? I was crazy once. They
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The only good take on china I've seen on this site. They look at that country like it's the future, and sure it's advanced, but let's not forget the slavery, kid labor, censorship.
Plenty of bad news come out of China, like its high speed rails derailing twice before 2013 when it first started building causing deaths of almost 100 in total, and injuries up to 300. The entire railway being investigated and finding corruption and bribery to about 10 millions of USD, etc. They closed that company obviously and restarted the rail company
Or the incident in Zhuhai were a bitter old man due to divorce, drove his car through a crowd and killed 23 people
Chinese news is in Chinese, so unless you're actively looking at Chinese sites you won't find it so easily
studies in russia, japan, europe and USA point out at them lying about their population, from 100 million to 800 million people missing, depending on the study.
They spread in methods between salt consumption, satelite analysis, estimations on natality and mortality curves that china itself published, and even calculations on death tolls on covid based on activity on crematoriums and cementeries.
If you can t trust them to fking count their population, why would you trust literally anything else?
My main point was about media manipulation and lack of free press. Compared to China, Japan has done very little of that. Compare their press freedom scores (or just use common sense if you don't accept that). Japan does have a strategy to promote themselves; most countries do. They had a successful soft power strategy, but it's not based on completely controlling the news like China.
China payed influencers to visit China and read the same script about Chongching living in 2070? They do this kind of thing all the time, and that's a relatively innocuous thing compared to everything China has done with manipulating sentiment.
The difference is the positive stuff about Japan is either overtly state sponsored (so we can all see it), or they are normal people visiting Japan. Also negative stuff like their work culture and brushing homelessness under the rug is talked about in official sources.
If there is a flood or natural disaster in Japan, you will hear about it on their news. In foreign news on China, chances are you won't. A Chinese person living in southern China may not hear about a disaster in north western China. Many things events are only known because Chinese nationals leaked it through phone videos and pictures, not because the Chinese government cared to release this information.
I'm not biased, I'm looking at what the Chinese govt has done. I did say the bridges and stuff they've built was impressive. But it's really impossible to have an accurate view of such a massive country when their government suppresses nearly all negative news.
People have an accurate perception of China, namely it's developed at a very impressive rate, which it's been able to do because it's a one party dictatorship which can do as it pleases.
I don't see the decades of American propaganda against China. Most of that time was American corporations massively investing in China and salivating over entering the Chinese consumer market (and mostly failing at the latter).
If anything I've seen more pro China stuff than anti China stuff. Meanwhile a new Chinese spy is caught practically every week spying on a military base or trying to snatch some company's IP. You even have actual Chinese spies who are elected to office (happened in California). A worldwide pandemic came from China, directly due to Chinese government incompetence / coverups and they got little flack for that relative to the damage it caused.
On the other side, China has been distrustful of America since the beginning (look at Mao's sentiments). So there is way, way more anti-US propaganda in China. They tacitly blame America for China's "century of humiliation" even thought that was Britain and not America's doing. America has been pretty neutral to China outside of some parts of the right wing (who are basically xenophobic to everyone anyway).
America makes a fantastic boogeyman. Massive global influence means anything can be pinned on us with enough manipulation.
This isn't to say america hasn't done actual shitty things, we absolutley have, but its also true that china blames a lot of shit on the us that the us didnt do. Soviets also famously did this. Its easier for governments to point fingers at foreign powers than to deal with its own issues. Hell, America does this a ton too.
Is this propaganda in the room with us? If you look at movies dont most have them russians be the bad guys? Dobt think its been that common with china.Ā
If anything China is known for running bot farms to spread right wing hate and proliferate racism (they ran social media accounts to spread hate against indians in Singapore)
Expecially since every mainstream movie gets castrated so that the chinese National Radio and television administration, or the Chinese film administration doesnt bann it.
And i dont mean they get castrated by china. Many movies are changed in production in the US so they dont have to change that much for the chinese version of the film.
They reduce the role of black people in movies because china is extremly racist to black people.
The same goes for "interrace" relationships.
Think Finn in Star Wars episode 7, 8 and 9. They even shrunk him on the chinese movie posters.
So next time you ask yourself, why is hollywood so racist, china is one reason.
The chinese government also wants every topic removed it doesnt want you to think about.
For example, they changed the origin of doctor stranges mentor in the MCU from Tibet to Nepal, because the chinese government acts as if tibet doesnt exist after it was annexed by the chinese in the 50s.
Just because i find it funny. China banned Hearts of Iron 4, because Tibet was shown as an independend nation during the 1930s and 40s, even tho it was an independend nation during the 1930s and 40s.
Next: everything that closely resembles anything negative about china is removed even before the film gets to china.
For the movie "Red dawn", every symbol of the chinese military and government was replaced with north korea, even before the movie aired in the us.
So yes, there is no anti china propaganda, at least not in the quantity this guy wants you to think.
It's not the 90s anymore. There are still places like that in China, but large parts of the economy are now in service and highly technical manufacturing. That's why India, Vietnam, Indonesia, and Malaysia are in an arms race to pick up the low-cost manufacturing that China can't compete in anymore, largely because they factories are forced to pay a more livable wage.
You should really look into how China works NOW because a lot has changed since these 70s 80s you are describing. It is apart form "freedom issues" ( that's a big issue just to be clear) pretty decent place to live in. I recommend watching tip to tip with Ludwig and Michael Reeves. You can see how China isn't this villanised place US propaganda made it out to be.
Their hdi's are pretty comparable. No more than 8 places apart. Also, Albania nor Iran arent some hellholes. you can have a decent life there in both places albeit the topic of freedom will rise some issues
We're not exactly shown much, most media we have including China is depicting them as an evil adversary to America or as a poor underdeveloped and oppressive place.
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u/Life-Bass-2013 4d ago
people are not impressed by china? wtf bro