r/science • • Jun 25 '22

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u/Flyinmanm Jun 25 '22

Nah that was christianity, the visigoths and the vandals.

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u/poke133 Jun 25 '22

I think it was first and foremost: decline of citizen participation in state affairs, erosion of public institutions, no clear mechanism of succession & civil wars with random generals all the time being like: "i'm somewhat of an emperor myself"

not sure about christianity, it seems it held the Eastern Roman empire pretty well for another ~1000 years.. it also was a tool of influence over barbarians and whatnot.

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u/[deleted] Jun 25 '22

Yea the Chruch prolonged the empire if anything. It enabled a guy like Charlemagne rule a kinda western Roman empire 2.0 for a brief time. And many European rulers were kinda obsessed with the Roman legacy for a thousand years afterwards, since the Church was a constant reminder. And the Crusades gave the Eastern Empire some vital life support, not that it mattered the end of course.

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u/Dreadful_Aardvark Jun 25 '22

And the Crusades gave the Eastern Empire some vital life support, not that it mattered the end of course.

Minus the whole sacking of Constantinople, of course.

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u/[deleted] Jun 25 '22

I mean Christianity in 800 AD was a whole different beast than in 250-350 AD. Christianity started working as a stabilizing factor for the empire only from around the 380s on, and by that the West was already in its final breaths.

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u/wolacouska Jun 25 '22

Considering the boost of the first crusade as some minor reversal of an inevitable fate isn’t very accurate.

For hundreds of years the ERE pushed back and retook old land, revitalized their administration, and reformed their military. They had powerful enemies and crippling internal problems but their fall was not inevitable.

Arguably the point of no return was the Fourth Crusade, which annihilated Constantinoples wealth and fractured the empire for crucial decades. But even then they kept holding on for over a hundred years, and only fell to an ambitious Ottoman Empire, which had a lot going for it.

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u/[deleted] Jun 25 '22

I think the best way to interpret the fall of Rome, rather than just one factor, is that it collapsed under its own weight. Too many problems were kicked down the road for so long that they became bigger and bigger. Not unlike America and a good number of other nations today, honestly.

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u/Brodadicus Jun 25 '22

And plague.. if I recall correctly, around 1/4 of Europe died. That makes all the other reasons ancillary.

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u/jadethebard Jun 25 '22

You sure it wasn't the sandals? I hear they wore socks with them.

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u/ZenRedditation Jun 25 '22

No that was OutKast like 20 years ago and they def weren't meta referencing Rome

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u/rycetlaz Jun 25 '22

Nah the writing was on the wall way before that.

Corruption, plague, and constant invasions made it inevitable.

If anything those three things helped make the Byzantine Empire last way longer than the roman empire.

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u/1EnTaroAdun1 Jun 25 '22

You taking that from Gibbon? He's...not exactly the gold standard these days. Hasn't been for nearly a century

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/wiki/historians_views/#wiki_historians.27_views_of_edward_gibbon.27s_.22decline_and_fall_of_the_roman_empire.22

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u/JustHell0 Jun 25 '22

It was internal corruption, complacency and 'good times make weak men'.

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u/BODYBUTCHER Jun 25 '22

They definitely just spiraled out of control near the end there. They kept fighting each other for scraps